Is it time for a change? Disc numbering and the flawed system.

[EL-KABONG]

Follow the money.

If many of the top tier athletes have to pay out of pocket to tour, that is the main issue. Millions of discs get sold. And maybe the top 10 players can afford gas, food and hotels.

Imo, the manufacturers are more interested in controlling their slice than making profit for anyone else: including their own team members.

This includes putting money into public relations, media, and overall mainstream marketability of the sport.

Then you can address lesser problems like drugs, hooligans, vandalism, idiots etc....

Well after that is where I would add "imperfect disc flight standardization"

 

[discspeed]

You'd think that Innova would have at least really take care of Climo...Sadly from what I've seen and heard that's not really the case. He's made them millions no doubt, but he has seen very little of that. Innova doesn't even cover his touring expenses...which is part of the reason he doesn't tour like he used to. He is so loyal that he wouldn't speak a negative word about Innova...Imo Kenny should be set for life after what he has done for them...Not rich, but he should live in a house that is paid for, get some insurance, and have some sort of pension. I'd like to see what they pay him compared to some of their management...Getting to know the Champ made me quickly lose interest in touring/sponsorship. I'd say Innova gets way more from their team members than they give back.

 

[Halcón]

^^^ Had no idea. That's sad, and just plain wrong.

 

[iacas]

He's made them millions no doubt, but he has seen very little of that.

That may not be as true as you think. None of us can really know how much they'd have made without him. You can't attribute all or even a significant portion of their earnings to Ken Climo, particularly when disc golf was being played by so many fewer people back when he first started winning.

 

[throwfromthewoods]

^^^ And also, I think, a big problem for the sport. Which, again, is why I wish we had the appeal to approach sponsors outside of the DG world. If other companies started investing in the sport, it might even put some pressure on the bigger names in disc golf to do more. Sometimes it feels like they are taking their place in the sport for granted. I could just be seeing the negative side of things, though.

 

[craftsman]

I was under the impression that sponsorship was used to create course pros and local salespeople, not to support touring. Im unsure if touring sponsorship truley equates to better sales.

 

[discspeed]

That may not be as true as you think. None of us can really know how much they'd have made without him. You can't attribute all or even a significant portion of their earnings to Ken Climo, particularly when disc golf was being played by so many fewer people back when he first started winning.

I can't imagine the Innova brand separate from Ken Climo...It's what gave them the reputation as "the best", and that couldn't really be argued with given his accomplishments. It's true that it's impossible to assign a dollar figure to what KC has meant to the brand, but I think he is responsible for a lot of Innova's success.

 

[discspeed]

I was under the impression that sponsorship was used to create course pros and local salespeople, not to support touring. Im unsure if touring sponsorship truley equates to better sales.

This is true of mid-tier sponsorship, but not for the touring players.

All the companies' best players are not course pros and local salespeople, they are touring most months of the year. Touring sponsorship represents investment in the sport that could do nothing but help the DG companies in the long run. The touring pros have a trickle down effect too....Everywhere they show up they beat the best locals...those guys look up to what they are throwing, then all the other locals look up to what their local pros are throwing. It definitely benefits sales.

 

[throwfromthewoods]

I was under the impression that sponsorship was used to create course pros and local salespeople, not to support touring. Im unsure if touring sponsorship truley equates to better sales.

Honestly, I feel growing the sport on a local level should fall (at least partly) to local organizations. At this point in our existence, anyways. We have plenty of championship-caliber touring courses. We have an established national tour. The big names in disc golf should be working to grow that into a greater exposure and only minimally tackle things like denoting "course pros" or things like that.

Again, I'm only speaking terms of today's needs in the sport. In the beginning, yes I 100% agree with you. You have to grow locally before you can grow nationally. But I think we've reached a level where it's nearing time to take the leap. We have tournaments in Europe, even New Zealand has a national tour now. The sport is out there, so why not work on the spotlight?

Not to mention, if we're hypothetically talking mainstream exposure, then greater touring pros would equal bigger sales for just the reason discspeed touched on. People want to use what the pros do, no matter what the sport.

 

[McFer]

In the proposed 45k payout that Steve Dodge had in that article, over 25k of that was earmarked for those that placed between 11 and 50. It's just my amateur opinion, but I don't think that's the most effective way to gain exposure. If I was a pro, I'd rather have a chance for a really substantial chunk of change with a big tournament win than the opportunity to maybe win a thousand or two with a pretty good shot at at least bringing home a couple hundred bucks.

I can understand the point of view that paying out the top 50 spots might get more regional pros to come out, but I think marketing is built around superstars. I mean, when the top prize for PDGA Worlds is ~5k, that's pretty embarrassing, and that's all marketing people should care about - it would be a big thing to be able to say the World Champion in DG took home $15k, that's something that folks would notice. Not that a tournament paid out 30 places deep to the tune of a couple hundred a spot. If the sport (and purses) were to grow, then you can always go deeper with payouts.

The other thing it might do is reduce the number of players these manufacturers sponsor, which would be bad for some but good for the pros at the top. I'd rather know that Will and Paul and Nikko and others can tour comfortably than see a vast list of nominally sponsored pros.

 

[aceshyze]

There probably isn't money available for a project like this in a growing sport, but I'm sure some very smart person would be able to design an equation or a computer program or something that could model the flight of a disc. There are functions that can predict the weather, with all of its intricacies, so why couldn't one be made for disc flight? The flex and tension of ligaments throwing the disc, angle of release, wind conditions, air resistance (how aerodynamic is the design), speed and torque of the rotation, etc. The variables are not that difficult to analyze.

The first problem that comes to mind, however, is how that information is compiled. The real money and energy would be spent on recording the minute details of thousands of throws. I'm sure people would be happy to do the tossing, but the recording is what requires the most dedication and commitment. However, if the sport grows, this type of technology is not so far-flung compared to the impact tests conducted on football helmets, or flight tests on golf balls. So, imagine a future where you can type in some basic personal statistics and see exactly how a disc will fly for you. But good luck getting out on the course when the monkey overlords have you working in the hovercraft factory.

 

[aceshyze]

The other thing it might do is reduce the number of players these manufacturers sponsor, which would be bad for some but good for the pros at the top. I'd rather know that Will and Paul and Nikko and others can tour comfortably than see a vast list of nominally sponsored pros.

I agree that it's sad to see top pros struggling to make the game fiscally worthwhile, and it does legitimize the sport when you can say that the professionals get tens of thousands of dollars per tournament. However, for a young game that prides itself on inclusivity, limiting the cash payouts for the "average joe" player could be a frustrating and alienating strategy. :\

 

[Lewis]

So for players looking at our flight charts, we use distance as a relative measure. If you can throw a max drive as far as the distance associated with that disc, then you could probably see the same flight characteristics. If not, then you'd need to check up on the factors affecting disc flight to determine how the flight path will change:

http://www.inboundsdiscgolf.com/content/?page_id=573

We expect to incorporate most of these factors into our online model in the very near future.

Have you considered drawing a "cone of uncertainty" on your flight charts, like they use to predict the path of hurricanes, instead of just drawing thin line segments?

 

[iacas]

In the proposed 45k payout that Steve Dodge had in that article, over 25k of that was earmarked for those that placed between 11 and 50. It's just my amateur opinion, but I don't think that's the most effective way to gain exposure. If I was a pro, I'd rather have a chance for a really substantial chunk of change with a big tournament win than the opportunity to maybe win a thousand or two with a pretty good shot at at least bringing home a couple hundred bucks.

FWIW on the PGA Tour, the winner gets about 18% of the purse. Second place gets about 10-11%. Third place gets just under 7%, and 10th place gets almost 3%. They pay out to about the top 70 (with 40th getting about 0.5%).

A sharper payout encourages players to win when there's lower funding. At $50k that gets you:
1st: $9000
2nd: $5250
3rd: $3400
10th: $1350
40th: $250

I don't know about you, but that payout structure sounds a LOT better to me than the one proposed by Vibram:

1st: $2,500
2nd: $2,300
3rd: $2,200
10th: $1,500
40th: $200

FWIW, until such time as there are enough worthy tour pros, I'd cut off payouts to the top 30 or so and bump the percentages up a little across the board to account for the added funds relative to the PGA Tour payout scale.

P.S. Not that this has much to do with disc numbering...

 

[throwfromthewoods]

P.S. Not that this has much to do with disc numbering...

I KNOW! Man, this really got turned in a different direction. But I like you're idea of modeling payouts to the PGA's percentages. Plus, finding ways to draw parallels to a huge sport like golf would help make it more familiar to those who would stumble across it on TV.

The one thing I would want to make sure is that the percentages from PGA wouldn't scale oddly with ours since our payouts are so much smaller. But I have no experience budgeting like that, so I wouldn't know. I would figure when working with percentages it all scales on its own.

 

[inbounds]

There probably isn't money available for a project like this in a growing sport, but I'm sure some very smart person would be able to design an equation or a computer program or something that could model the flight of a disc. There are functions that can predict the weather, with all of its intricacies, so why couldn't one be made for disc flight? The flex and tension of ligaments throwing the disc, angle of release, wind conditions, air resistance (how aerodynamic is the design), speed and torque of the rotation, etc. The variables are not that difficult to analyze.

This is something we're working on. If you have a background in discrete math or anything related to combinatorics you'll quickly realize that there are tens of thousands of combinations of all the variables per disc. When you extrapolate that against the entire population of discs, you're into the millions of combinations of disc flight paths. That's not to say that it's impossible to determine how to model each combination of flight paths, but it helps to provide direction on how to tackle the task and we're really excited to get a more dynamic tool out there.

Have you considered drawing a "cone of uncertainty" on your flight charts, like they use to predict the path of hurricanes, instead of just drawing thin line segments?

Dubious timing on the hurricane comment There are a few different looks that we've considered to compare a disc to itself and the "cone of uncertainty" is not one of them...but it is now It's a really good suggestion and would make a great optional feature to see the expected range of flight paths. Thanks!

 

[Lewis]

Dubious timing on the hurricane comment There are a few different looks that we've considered to compare a disc to itself and the "cone of uncertainty" is not one of them...but it is now It's a really good suggestion and would make a great optional feature to see the expected range of flight paths. Thanks!

I'm glad you like the idea, even if it was inspired by a deadly storm. Good luck with your number crunching, and I look forward to seeing what y'all develop. :thmbup: