Is there a limit to "Helping to find a lost disc"?

[glassila]

If a cardmate throws into an area that you don't want to venture into, are you required to walk in and help find the disc?
According to 812.B.1a: A Player must: Perform actions expected by the rules, including: Helping to find a lost disc.
Just wondering what you do when someone's disc goes into a wet area or a thorny area or somewhere else you don't want to go into?

 

[auzcar]

Personally, if it isn't someone I REALLY dislike, I would help even if I get thorns and water up to my ears. However, I wouldn't expect someone else to do that for me, even though my experience is that most people will.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Personally, if it isn't someone I REALLY dislike, I would help even if I get thorns and water up to my ears. However, I wouldn't expect someone else to do that for me, even though my experience is that most people will.

That's pretty much how I feel.

But I think the OP was getting at, "How scratched up and/or wet does a card mate have to get, to satisfy the requirements of help ing to find a lost disc?

I'd say no rules can force a card mate to get cut on thorns or hump through wet bushes. They can scan around off the fairway and see if they catch a glimpse of color

 

[ru4por]

I am not getting poison ivy for anyone's disc.

I will go poke around, avoid the ivy area and take a look. Throwing a clear disc, leaf green, or autumn oak leaf brown, in the fall.......I might just take a seat on my cart and enjoy the day.

I find, due to my experience and attention span, I often have a pretty good idea where the disc is, how it might carry and how the terrain impacts the flight path.

 

[foxdawg10]

If a cardmate throws into an area that you don't want to venture into, are you required to walk in and help find the disc?
According to 812.B.1a: A Player must: Perform actions expected by the rules, including: Helping to find a lost disc.
Just wondering what you do when someone's disc goes into a wet area or a thorny area or somewhere else you don't want to go into?

I had a card mate in a sanctioned tourney refuse to help look for my disc because it was thorny and he was allergic to poison ivy. I understood.

I simply asked for longer than 3 minutes to look on my own, and they agreed to not start the clock. I still was able to find the disc within 3 minutes, take my throw and escape from the rough reasonably unscathed. Poison ivy doesn't effect me very much.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Poison ivy doesn't effect me very much.

Oh, how I wish I could say that.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

I had a card mate in a sanctioned tourney refuse to help look for my disc because it was thorny and he was allergic to poison ivy. I understood.

I simply asked for longer than 3 minutes to look on my own, and they agreed to not start the clock. I still was able to find the disc within 3 minutes, take my throw and escape from the rough reasonably unscathed. Poison ivy doesn't effect me very much.

Sounds like more than one card mate refused to help look. Yes, if they are not going to help you look, then they should give you more time. Five versus 3 minutes is reasonable. I've not assisted on many occasions because I have my own physical disabilities, there was already an "army" looking (other cardmates and their caddies), and because I generally am useless in this matter (lack the visual ability to find needles in a haystack). However, I realize I certainly need to be at least minimally engaged, even if I am not getting deep in the weeds with everyone. Look into the rough in question if not going into it. Because I am using a walking stick to navigate the course, I can also poke around in bushes.

 

[glassila]

Since the rule doesn't define what "Helping to find a lost disc" is, I guess there is sufficient wiggle room that allows a person to abide by the rule without getting into the middle of a wet or thorny area. You could say "I'm searching along the edge" and not get into the nasty area.
I would say as long as you "helped look" you are off the hook for a courtesy violation.

812.B.1a: A Player must: Perform actions expected by the rules, including: Helping to find a lost disc.

 

[NewnHot]

I will go to great lengths to help find a disc, I have not always received equal effort. In my most recent tournament while searching for a lost disc, 2 card mates decided that it was more important to pick berries and eat them then put in more then a cursory glance. I even retrieved discs out of the water for both of them.

After the round the 4th card mate and I went back to a pond, and I helped him retrieve a disc he threw in it and he spent 30 minutes helping look for a lost disc of mine.

I agree with foxdawg10 If you don't want to help or have health concerns just be a little flexible with the 3-minute clock, as long as you aren't causing a backup.

 

[ru4por]

I will go to great lengths to help find a disc, I have not always received equal effort. In my most recent tournament while searching for a lost disc, 2 card mates decided that it was more important to pick berries and eat them then put in more then a cursory glance. I even retrieved discs out of the water for both of them.

After the round the 4th card mate and I went back to a pond, and I helped him retrieve a disc he threw in it and he spent 30 minutes helping look for a lost disc of mine.

I agree with foxdawg10 If you don't want to help or have health concerns just be a little flexible with the 3-minute clock, as long as you aren't causing a backup.

The rules don't allow for discretionary flexibility, unfortunately. Nor does it really allow for the choice of not assisting, in looking for a disc. The clock would start when all card members begin the search.

 

[ILUVSMGS18]

The rules don't allow for discretionary flexibility, unfortunately. Nor does it really allow for the choice of not assisting, in looking for a disc. The clock would start when all card members begin the search.

However that requires everyone to look for the disc, so if someone doesn't look for any reason, this he clock doesn't start, so technically it does allow for flexibility as written.

 

[biscoe]

The rules don't allow for discretionary flexibility, unfortunately. Nor does it really allow for the choice of not assisting, in looking for a disc. The clock would start when all card members begin the search.

Not really although that is certainly how it has always been treated- look for a few minutes, then start the clock has always been the norm there. I disagree with everyone saying that anyone should get extra time under pretty much any circumstances. IMO the rule was better at 2 minutes as well. When events are at or near capacity this extra time virtually always has an effect on the field in general. Holes that get backed up tend to stay backed up.

805.03.A - "A disc is declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after having arrived at the area where it is thought to be. Any player in the group or an Official may begin the timing of the three minutes and must inform the group that the timing has begun"

 

[foxdawg10]

It seems to be a catch 22. If someone flat out refuses to help due to health concerns, the clock can never be started. At that point it seems to be up to the player to take a reasonable amount of time, and then call off the search him / herself. Although the rules don't state what happens if someone refuses to help, it seems up to the players to resolve, not the rule book.

 

[Countchunkula]

It seems to be a catch 22. If someone flat out refuses to help due to health concerns, the clock can never be started. At that point it seems to be up to the player to take a reasonable amount of time, and then call off the search him / herself. Although the rules don't state what happens if someone refuses to help, it seems up to the players to resolve, not the rule book.

I don't read it that way. It says that any member of the group or an official can start the clock. No requirement that everyone has to be looking to start the clock.

As far as players who refuse to help, not following the rules is grounds for a courtesy violation, right? Not saying that I like or would use that tool, but I think it's the only recourse you have.

 

[foxdawg10]

I don't read it that way. It says that any member of the group or an official can start the clock. No requirement that everyone has to be looking to start the clock.

As far as players who refuse to help, not following the rules is grounds for a courtesy violation, right? Not saying that I like or would use that tool, but I think it's the only recourse you have.

Yes I can see that interpretation. It would be a bite in the ass if the same guy who refuses to help also starts the clock, lol. You would have conflicting penalties.

I'd like to think our sport is better than this. Perhaps rules need to be re written in this case, or a certain amount of discretion does need to be granted since the rules can't possibly cover every possible scenario. .

 

[krupicka]

This is why for stuff like marshes and nasty areas, TDs should consider marking the area OB so that no one is required to go in that area.

 

[Dcinmd]

We had this discussion yesterday about the lengths a card mate would go to help search for a disc.

The scenario was hole 54 (last hole) of a 3 day tournament with a threesome of MA50. The location was a casual relief area that was 20+ feet deep gulch . Luckily one member of the 3-some went to the opposite side and found it had clear the area.

And the card behind us also had an issue with the same location. A member from their card immediately went to the drop zone and threw before locating his disc, and did not call for a provisional, tisk tisk. He took a misplay stroke when they found out it had also cleared the gulch.

 

[roblee]

We had this discussion yesterday about the lengths a card mate would go to help search for a disc.

The scenario was hole 54 (last hole) of a 3 day tournament with a threesome of MA50. The location was a casual relief area that was 20+ feet deep gulch . Luckily one member of the 3-some went to the opposite side and found it had clear the area.

And the card behind us also had an issue with the same location. A member from their card immediately went to the drop zone and threw before locating his disc, and did not call for a provisional, tisk tisk. He took a misplay stroke when they found out it had also cleared the gulch.

Regarding the second scenario: I wonder if that is a misplay per the rules? Is the DZ the casual relief for that area? If there was reasonable evidence the disc went into the casual area there is not a requirement that players negotiate a 20+' gulch to confirm. You can search for 3 minutes but are not required to. If a disc is found at a different location after the next throw, the point is moot. No penalty. Same for OB.

 

[ru4por]

Regarding the second scenario: I wonder if that is a misplay per the rules? Is the DZ the casual relief for that area? If there was reasonable evidence the disc went into the casual area there is not a requirement that players negotiate a 20+' gulch to confirm. You can search for 3 minutes but are not required to. If a disc is found at a different location after the next throw, the point is moot. No penalty. Same for OB.

I am still trying to figure out how it is not a lost disc. If you throw a disc and cannot find it, where you think it might have landed is not relevant. Sounds like a re-tee.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Tell ya what... I was invited last fall to golf with the guy who does Hops and Hyzer on YouTube, Brandon. It was so nice when we got to the first course course of our day (Bald Mountain in Michigan) and as soon as a disc was clearly a hider, Brandon said "Alright guys. Three minutes, clocks on." He and his brother in law were both all in on focusing our day on golfing and not looking for lost discs.

We played Bald Mountain, Kensington Green Long, and Kensington Blue Short. Lost only a couple of discs, and played a TON of golf.