Keeley Park, Greensboro, NC

[Tenacious EJ]

Spoke with Keeley Park's manager, Tony Royal, today after walking around the beautiful park. We spoke for nearly half an hour, and what I heard was pretty exciting, considering. Mr. Royal told me that further projects at the park are stalled due to the current construction of the outer loop around the city, 840. The construction has forced the movement of the high tower power lines that run alongside and through the park. Mr. Royal told me that he wants everything at the park to be "high end," and that he wants it done right, so to keep from tearing down and moving the course due to construction, he's waiting to lay down the course. There is another chunk of land he thinks will be added to the park, which may play a factor as well.

Mr. Royal is clearly enthusiastic about the course, and he wants a nice one. He showed me the current course map, which he didn't design and he doesn't know who did, but he admits he doesn't play and would welcome help in laying out the disc golf course, as the proposed course map is pretty much out of date due to the changes to the park. He also would welcome and appreciate help from the public to help get the course installed. He believes there is room for 18 holes, but again, admits he doesn't know what a course looks like, other than Barber Park, which is probably good, since most of Barber Park's holes are fairly long.

I can tell you there are some low-lying areas in the park, so I don't know where those will fall, but there are also some nice elevation changes as well as the potential for throwing straight under the towers. The park itself is first rate, and once the loop around Greensboro is finished an exit will be opened at the Rankin Mill Rd exit, making it extremely easy to get to the park from 40. I didn't broach the subject of multiple tees and pin placements, but just talking to him it's clear he is behind a course at Keeley. I hope when the time comes we can show up with a good number of volunteers to help build a signature course for Greensboro.:hfive:

 

[Tenacious EJ]

Incidentally, this is the original park map. It's really hard to see, because the disc golf course is laid out in yellow, but eventually a redesign will be required. The baseball fields cannot be placed where the current design has them due to septic systems underneath. The current plan which has not been laid out, is for the fields to be just right of the maintenance building at the upper right. This is good, because that area where the fields were proposed has some nice elevation to it. Neither the electrical lines nor the proposed loop locations are final.

 

[BrotherDave]

Very cool. Make sure those low lying areas don't flood a lot, could be undesirable.

 

[BraveThrower43]

Great news! The triad could use anouther good course

 

[DSmith]

Last I heard they were waiting on the money for phase 2 of the master plan to be released. Also the course on the master plan is just a mock up of where Site Solutions thought the course should go, not what an actual designer might lay out. (There was a thread about this a while back that Adam Caudel posted)

The design can go 2 ways here;
They decide to get the first hack who comes along to layout the course, for free.
or
They let the architect firm they use located in Charlotte (Site Solutions?) to contract out who will do the design, probably Innova and since Parks are notorious for being cheap, probably Russell.

Bonus Comedy option;
I can try and get ahold of the powers that be with Greensboro Parks and Rec and put a bug in their ear that I'd be willing to do the layout, for a nominal fee of course. Of the 2 course projects I had open, one just went in the ground and the other is waiting till sometime this month to see if we got the grant money. I've got a 3rd in the works but I may wait till the fall to work on that layout.
I've walked the Keeley property extensively already over the last few years while waiting and have a good Idea what is out there.

 

[DSmith]

Hey there s that pesky thread!

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11620

 

[Tenacious EJ]

Yes, I couldn't repost on it or I would have. In any event, due to pretty extensive changes to the land itself that course won't be built. I can tell you the City is cheap and broke, and I seriously doubt they'd pay anyone to design a course for them. For some reason the city council refuses to consider citizens paying for extravagances like the water parks, even at just $1 a head. Free golf is great, but I doubt many would balk at paying $2 to play a great course. The mgr and I are going to meet again when the park layout is finalized, so we can go from there, but for now it's just good to know it's definitely something we can look forward to.

 

[DSmith]

Yes, I couldn't repost on it or I would have. In any event, due to pretty extensive changes to the land itself that course won't be built. I can tell you the City is cheap and broke, and I seriously doubt they'd pay anyone to design a course for them. For some reason the city council refuses to consider citizens paying for extravagances like the water parks, even at just $1 a head. Free golf is great, but I doubt many would balk at paying $2 to play a great course. The mgr and I are going to meet again when the park layout is finalized, so we can go from there, but for now it's just good to know it's definitely something we can look forward to.

I was kinda hoping I didnt come off snarky in my post. The internet has a way of adding snark.
That being said, the city is cheap but not broke like you think and they do pay people to design park elements. Of course our problem is that everyone thinks they can design a course just because they are a disc golfer. Actually Ive heard that from parks here. "All disc golfers think they are course designers"
I digress.
Most if not all Parks Departments have a set budget which is usually pretty slim except for the years when state grant money is available for major projects. This last fiscal year was such for NC (June-June) and quite a few cities put in bids for a chunk of money. This is what I'm waiting on for the Jamestown course.
On other years city council or the town managers or whomever is in charge of the budget sets the budget for P&R. A fine example was when Lexington City Council approved a budget for 2 disc golf courses for $150k. Now I'm sure your saying that that is way too much money for 2 courses, but it got approved almost unanimously. Of course it got vetoed by the Mayor but still the fact it got that far is an indicator that the money is there if you go about getting it the right way.

So I'm sure your saying "Man 75k for a disc golf course is way too much" Well thats because Parks and Rec was planning on paying the contractors to do the work (as well as holding onto the left over funds for other projects).

I have nothing personal against designing a course for free, but its pretty stupid to ignore the fact that everyone else is getting paid and not me.

10-20% designer fee off a 75k project is $7500-$15000

We need to start getting paid, people!

:hfive:

 

[sloppydisc]

If you want designers to be paid that kind of money then designers need to have a resume built up that would justify the $$. Or maybe the PDGA needs some type of designer program where designers can become accredited by the PDGA or another reputable organization so that parks departments feel comfortable that someone with a clue is doing the work. I know they had a designer conference, and that is a great first step, but there are a lot of unsafe courses getting put in right now.

There are probably very few designers in each state that have a resume which would lead a smart park's department manager to say, "yeah, I'll hand this guy a $10k check.

 

[BrotherDave]

There does need to be a vetting process to weed out all these armchair course designer hacks. On the other hand, that would weed me out of helping to design a better course than what some hacks would put in. :\

"You get what you pay for" is generally true but I fear that the chance of a park hiring a swindler that does a bad job (Schwartz *cough* *cough*) is just as high as getting a hack to do it for free.

This area needs a collective group of people who know what the hell they are talking about to ally instead of having a bunch of separate hands doing nothing and just complaining.

 

[DSmith]

I had some recent talks and wheeling and dealing and sent in some info that was requested for a budget. I also looked at maybe using the area by the park road and the woods in front for routing a few holes. Just a random idea I had. I'm not gonna go into any specific details on who or what we talked about other than the project may finally be moving forward.
Keep your little fingers crossed!
If we get past this hurdle and we get a greenlight It looks like it'll be either a Red/Blue course or a White/Gold. My goal is to make it a legit par 72 since there is a ton of room. Non of this lady par 61's or 62's. Big manly 72 par.

 

[Tenacious EJ]

I agree about the area by the park road- there are at least two decent holes in there. I have no problem with a decent sized course, but my personal opinion is this: if you build it, they will play, whether they're good at it or not. This is doubly true for public courses. I personally want to avoid beginners and family back-ups who are languishing on pro-level holes that are out of their league. I feel a public park should provide for beginners and advanced players alike, when possible. As a father, I often have no choice but to take my kids when I play, and the forced march through a park like Springwood tires them out and starts to bore them. The ideal is closer to something like Valley Springs, with 3 levels of play for players of all skill level. Again, this is Greensboro, and it's run by idiots, so what can be done will probably be limited, and I understand all this.

On a side note- I miss being able to throw through a electrical tower, since they ruined my favorite hole at Johnson St. That would be a cool hole design, a mando under a tower.

 

[DSmith]

Ok, well anyways, I was kidding about the gold level thing and the par 72. It will be Red/Blue level which means 2 tees per hole, Red level which is 850 rated and Blue which is 950 rated.
Again
2 tee pads per hole (unless it's not needed)
2 different skill level layouts
one for beginners
one for advanced players

The area up front is only an option for now and wont yield alot of holes on its own. It may also help with the routing since it looks like I may have to hub out of that parking lot.

Some courses are long and take a long time to play, like Idlewild, Renny, but it doesnt make them bad courses. If you play a round at Keeley it probably wont be a quick one.
I will look into having a loop within the course where you can play a shorter round or continue on and play the full layout. As far as "the ideal" we already have Johnson Street. There's no reason to make a clone of it.

 

[BrotherDave]

Sounds good D. You have my shield.

 

[Tenacious EJ]

I'm certainly not suggesting a clone of Johnson St., I was saying I'd like to see a course where everyone can play without it being too hard for beginners or too easy for veterans. What you're proposing sounds pretty ideal to me.

 

[DSmith]

I figured I'd give you guys an update. I have a meeting with Parks mid January to go over some items such as funding and presenting a few routing options. Its looking good so far. One of the things I will have to keep in mind is the second phase of the master plan. The local club is planning an Icebowl on a temp course they created which looks pretty good. If you want to get a taste of what's to come then come on out for the icebowl.

 

[keltik]

This is all very interesting.

 

[Tenacious EJ]

When is the Icebowl, Drew?

 

[DSmith]

Looking at 28th of February so far.

 

[BraveThrower43]

Looking at 28th of February so far.

I may try and make it up there for that. 2 rounds?