Ledgestone Insurance Championships SuperTour $10,000+ Added 9/14 & 9/15

[dusty5150]

But when you hole out this way legally it counts?

You can't say "does the act of him taking the disc off the top of the basket and placing it in the basket considered a throw?" and argue it's not when he should have taken the disc off the top of the basket and placed it in the basket which counts as a throw.

If that were the case, everytime someone did this it wouldn't count.

His action of placing it in the basket with a warning for not marking it should have been all that happened.

It amazes me that an event has an A Tier label and world class players and yet, people still don't know what to do**No wonder our sport won't grow.

**Assuming that he placed it in the basket twice.

ok i think i see where i'm getting this wrong. he shouldn't have marked his lie and holed out again. his unmarked lie hole out counts, with a warning.

so, i guess his second hole out should have been called as a practise throw and he should have taken a penalty stroke(?).

 

[giles]

But when you hole out this way legally it counts?

You can't say "does the act of him taking the disc off the top of the basket and placing it in the basket considered a throw?" and argue it's not when he should have taken the disc off the top of the basket and placed it in the basket which counts as a throw.

If that were the case, everytime someone did this it wouldn't count.

His action of placing it in the basket with a warning for not marking it should have been all that happened.

It amazes me that an event has an A Tier label and world class players and yet, people still don't know what to do**No wonder our sport won't grow.

**Assuming that he placed it in the basket twice.

So by that logic it would be against the rules if I were to use my disc as my mark, drop a different disc into the basket. Pick up my disc off the ground and place it on top of the one already in the basket then pick them both up together?
Does it make a difference if the second disc was in one motion of dropping it on top then picking them up together vs. putting the second disc in then adjusting my bag strap or picking my nose before I took them out?

 

[Dana]

Ok, so it sounds like this- After he holed out without marking, he was called for not marking his lie. Was he (they) correct in treating it like a foot fault? IE- rethrow w/no penalty for 1st offense.

 

[dusty5150]

Ok, so it sounds like this- After he holed out without marking, he was called for not marking his lie. Was he (they) correct in treating it like a foot fault? IE- rethrow w/no penalty for 1st offense.

803.03G does not state whether or not the throw is retaken or not. I would think the throw counts and he gets a warning. hence, when he replayed the shot, that was a practise throw, IMO.

 

[_MTL_]

803.03G does not state whether or not the throw is retaken or not. I would think the throw counts and he gets a warning. hence, when he replayed the shot, that was a practise throw, IMO.

agreed.

I'm gonna pull the "I'm a PDGA Marshal" card and say that is how I would ruled it, once again, assuming it went down that way.

 

[giles]

That assumes you are not allowed to put a disc in the basket for a reason other than holing out.
Lets say your holed out on a hillside pin location maybee the ground is slick and muddy and someone on the card needs a hand, you don't want to put your putter on the muddy hillside and your bag is already at the next tee, so you place it in the basket to free up both hands to assist fatty up the hill.

 

[TheArnoldPalmer]

Sorry for the quality - 1st time uploading a video from my iphone but I think I got it too work.
I'll slowly post up the rest of the videos from the final 9 when I get time as the day goes on. :hfive:

 

[giles]

a penalty throw for the "second hole out" also seems like it doesn't fall into the reasons for having that rule "regarding practice throws" in the first place. You gain nothing.

 

[_MTL_]

That assumes you are not allowed to put a disc in the basket for a reason other than holing out.
Lets say your holed out on a hillside pin location maybee the ground is slick and muddy and someone on the card needs a hand, you don't want to put your putter on the muddy hillside and your bag is already at the next tee, so you place it in the basket to free up both hands to assist fatty up the hill.

I mean I can see what you are getting at, but really?

 

[giles]

I mean I can see what you are getting at, but really?

No, not at all.

It would be a silly thing to do but I don't think it is forbidden by the rules. (yes, I've read the book a few times over the years)

 

[giles]

going by the logic that it is a practice throw to set a disc in the basket looks like that should have been two strokes on Nikko from what I see on the video.

Thought I personaly don't think that is a stroke and wouldn't call it unless a throwing motion was used.

 

[Jarrod]

His action of placing it in the basket with a warning for not marking it should have been all that happened.

Based on my understanding of the rule book you're absolutely correct. As far as I'm concerned his original shot counted and the other was completely unnecessary. The only reason the other one even took place is that all of this happened in the space of 5-10 seconds and I didn't react quickly enough to the situation.

Should he have been stroked for the additional shot?

Maybe.

But I'm not positive now, and I definitely wasn't positive at the time either and I wasn't going to try and levy a penalty without a concrete rule to reference. I made the best call I could from what I could see with my eyes and with my understanding of the rules at the time. I still haven't seen anything that demands a penalty stroke.

 

[Dana]

Lets all remember 803.01 (f) when talking crazy scenarios.

 

[Jarrod]

Watched the video - I hadn't been able to see that he dropped the disc in through the top of the basket. At the time I was under the impression that he grabbed the one on top of the basket and put the other disc in the basket without marking. Apparently he pushed the one on top in the basket and continued to hold the other disc.

I guess in the strictest interpretation of the rules, him pushing the disc in through the top would be considered a throw and not actually a hole out. So him marking his shot next and holing out would be an additional throw.

 

[Dana]

Thanks for the video, helps clear up the "I heard, he said" stuff.

 

[_MTL_]

Looks like he pushed it through the top in frustration, then they said "hey that's not holing out" so he marked and dropped it in"

You could argue that pushing it through is a stroke. Very very strange situation.

 

[JohtoVillage]

You could argue that pushing it through is a stroke. Very very strange situation.

It certainly was a strange situation. However, lets remember that a Discatcher shouldn't be able to have a disc fall through the top of the basket. I don't believe Nikko was really trying to hole out in that situation. He knows he has to mark his disc, and he was warned for not doing so. I do not believe he was trying to hole out in that scenario.

An example would be this...if the disc gets wedged in the basket 90%, and the player has to pull the disc on the inside of the basket to get it to come out and it falls in the basket, is this considered a practice throw? Nikko made the error of not immediately marking his disc, but he wasn't taking a practice throw and he wasn't trying to hole out. In addition, as stated, the basket is not intended to let a disc drop through the top.

Saying that our sport won't grow because of this "situation" is a bit extreme, though.

 

[JohtoVillage]

ok i think i see where i'm getting this wrong. he shouldn't have marked his lie and holed out again. his unmarked lie hole out counts, with a warning.

the question is, is the act of him taking the disc off the top of the basket and placing it in the basket considered a throw? i dont think so. the only infraction he made was not marking his lie.

Let's remember that his unmarked "hole out" wasn't really a hole out because a disc cannot "fall through" the top and be counted. As stated, he wasn't intending to hole this disc out because he probably wasn't even sure his disc was going to fall through the top because the basket isn't supposed to allow this. In this case, I believe the warning was sufficient.

 

[DiscJunkie]

At its very essence, a Book of Rules is intended to level the playing field so that everyone is playing the same game and judged by the same standards. It also may have other essential guidelines that keep the game within certain boundaries (conduct, dress, courtesy, etc).
First, to call a drop into the basket a "Practice throw" is extreme and unnecessary. And it certainly does not meet the standard of the rule of Fairness 803..01 (F):
F. Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.
803.01 Page 9

It sounds to me like the situation was handled fairly and according to the rules. A Warning was issued for a non-consequential violation that calls for a Warning.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but the Common-sense solution was followed and i agree with, and applaud the Marshall on duty.
Really, Nikko should have kown better. He was warned and no further violations occurred. I simply don't understand why such a big deal is being made over this.

 

[_MTL_]

So if he is pushed it through and it was deemed accidental and then he marked and dropped in, why was there a warning given in the first place?

You can't say he was warned for not marking the disc on the push through when you aren't calling the push through an attempt.

I'm very confused.