Legalities of disc flattening/adjustments/etc... Change?

[Tiny]

It's a rule, we must all abide by it because that's the way its intended. Making productions on discs to change flight characteristics is obviously going to be against the rules. I understand they can't seem to make 2 discs to fly the same, but this is the topsy turvy world we live in.

Just dye your disc, if it happens to get flat in the process.... Is that really YOUR fault? lol just kidding that's still cheating

 

[wake911]

The bottom of Page 2 in the PDGA specs shows where the measurements are made. Disc height is measured at a point that could be considered the shoulder of the rim: PDGA Tech Specs
You can see that from the shoulder to the middle, the disc can be flat, concave or convex and still be within spec. If you receive a new disc that is domed and it gets flattened or warped thru wear, you could take action to get it back to domier if you knew how to do that. But if you get a new flat top, you cannot take the same steps to make it domier. May be non-sensical if a new and modified disc look the same. But it's the action to get there that is against the rules in one case.

Interesting. Thanks for that link. I learned a lot in this thread.

 

[Future_Primitive]

How about changing the rule to better specify what it means to modify the disc? Anything that involves adding or removing material, or otherwise changing the texture of the material (ie, drilling holes, scoring) is not allowed. However, minor changes to shape (bending, flattening), color, or temperature are permitted.

This, to me seems like a reasonable rule. It explicitly allows currently accepted modifications such as tuning a disc by bending it, dying a disc, or freezing it overnight for snow rounds while also forbidding more drastic changes. By this rule change, flattening would be allowed as a minor shape change.

Bravo! :thmbup: Excellent post and suggestion. Allows for some minor tweaking while keep an major changes illegal. Finally a logical solution to a very stupid rule.

Having a completely unenforceable rule that only punishes the player while allowing equipment manufacturers a free pass on quality control is illogical. Punishing a player who simply wants his/her two identical discs to actually be identical is not a good rule. Basically the PDGA only allows cheating if you pay the manufacturer for the illegal disc. :doh:

All this does is pretty much ensure I will never support or belong to the PDGA.

 

[JoakimBL]

Yes, lets make the rule that is impossible to police, even more impossible to police, so that players don't have to feel bad about cheating.
No modification is the only rule that makes sense. Everything else becomes a debate about how much is too much. It's the same with the "why cant I paint my disc just a little and put a small sticker on it?" whining.
For crying out loud, buy the disc the way you want them. If you don't like the way it flies, buy another one that does.

 

[bradharris]

Yes, lets make the rule that is impossible to police, even more impossible to police, so that players don't have to feel bad about cheating.
No modification is the only rule that makes sense. Everything else becomes a debate about how much is too much. It's the same with the "why cant I paint my disc just a little and put a small sticker on it?" whining.
For crying out loud, buy the disc the way you want them. If you don't like the way it flies, buy another one that does.

No modification also means that you can't dye it, and can't bend it to tune it (a very common practice with the Epic). That's where the problems are coming from, there are modifications that are done that seem to be illegal in the rules, but are never questioned.

 

[Deadshot Jack]

The PDGA isn't concerned with people using paint pens or stickers to put their contact info on their discs, and their not concerned with dome flattening either. The "no mods" rule was put into place because back in the day players use to add many layers of paint to the underside of their discs to completely change the weight and flight of their disc. I may be wrong about this, but that's what I've gathered in researching the topic around the interwebs. Some body on here a while back had an email from the PDGA that supports this.
On another note, if I flatten a disc of mine, how is ANYBODY going to be able to tell that I didn't buy it like that, especially with the quality control issues that most manufacturers have.

 

[Deadshot Jack]

Oops, wrong form of they're in the first sentence.

 

[Bhoffman09]

Agreed with Golden.. Adding or removing material can have significant effects on lift and drag. Minor changes allow personal modifications without providing an advantage.

 

[keltik]

The bottom of Page 2 in the PDGA specs shows where the measurements are made. Disc height is measured at a point that could be considered the shoulder of the rim: PDGA Tech Specs
You can see that from the shoulder to the middle, the disc can be flat, concave or convex and still be within spec. If you receive a new disc that is domed and it gets flattened or warped thru wear, you could take action to get it back to domier if you knew how to do that. But if you get a new flat top, you cannot take the same steps to make it domier. May be non-sensical if a new and modified disc look the same. But it's the action to get there that is against the rules in one case.

that drawing needs some work. The dimensioning does not meet ANSI standards.

 

[JoakimBL]

Agreed with Golden.. Adding or removing material can have significant effects on lift and drag. Minor changes allow personal modifications without providing an advantage.

If there is no advantage, what is the point?

And I'm not saying the PDGA is concerned with the modding, paint pens or stickers. I'm just saying that your "minor change" might be someones huge alteration. It's much harder to draw the line between a minor and a major change than simply say no changes, period.

 

[yearofrolling]

I thought you were supposed to "tune" bend and flex your discs.
Making a disc flat isn't really different from bending it.
I don't thing excessive sanding or trimming are in the spirit of the rule;
no removing excessive amounts of plastic.
Bending in anyway is fine.

 

[Cgkdisc]

At one time, I believe those who set the standards were concerned that some modification might be significant enough to change the game. The bevel edge disc DID change the game but I believe it occurred before the PDGA had Tech Specs. Making a hole in the disc and filing the rim to make it sharper seem to be the only relatively simple player mods that could significantly improve the performance (distance) of a stock disc. Beyond that, the rule is simply to discourage players from messing with stock discs beyond wear & tear.

 

[Fighter]

that drawing needs some work. The dimensioning does not meet ANSI standards.

LOVE THIS! Also, those tolerances are pretty damn huge.

 

[Steve West]

For a few more days, there is a way to do what you want. Make any modification you want, as long as it stays within the specifications. Then, have another player question your disc.

2011:
802.01 Discs Used in Play:
...
D. Discs must be specifically approved by the director if questioned by another player or an official, but in no case shall the disc be approved if it violates any of the above specifications.

Since the rules say the disc must be specifically approved by the director, the director has no choice but to approve it. Therefore, the act of questioning it creates a legal disc.

I know that is not what it means, but it is what it says.

Fortunately, the 2013 rule is better:

2013:
801.02 Discs Used in Play
...
D. A disc that is questioned by another player or an official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director.

 

[BirdmanCR]

I bend my buzzzes down bc i like them concave

 

[iacas]

I've been discussing this elsewhere.

Currently the rule (this isn't a new rule for 2013) says that you cannot make post-production modifications to your disc which alter ITS original flight characteristics.

EXCEPT THAT

You can lightly sand it or mark it with something that has no detectable thickness.

There are no exceptions for bending your disc or changing the dome height. Another player in another thread said he hot stamped things in extra deep so he could rest his fingers in the spots and this could violate the rule too if the flight characteristics were changed (if you agreed that hot stamping differently than normal was "post-production" - if not, then no violation).

The thing is the PDGA Rules are out of sync with what's commonly accepted by players. The vast majority of players do not have a moral problem with this, and no real advantage is gained, so I agree with the posts above that this rule should be changed to say that discs cannot be modified so that they're out of spec. That would include sanding a disc so that it's no longer 21cm wide, dying a disc so that it got overweight (if that's even possible, or soaking it in water or whatever you could do to achieve this).

I haven't yet read a modification to a disc that made it fly 20% farther than any other approved disc out there. Who cares if you tune your Buzzz because it's currently too flippy? You could just buy another disc that behaved the way you wanted but instead you made it a bit domier. No advantage gained.

I support changing the rule to remove the impossible-to-enforce "alters the original flight characteristics" stuff.

Just dye your disc, if it happens to get flat in the process.... Is that really YOUR fault? lol just kidding that's still cheating

Under the rules as they're written now, unfortunately, yes.

No modification also means that you can't dye it, and can't bend it to tune it (a very common practice with the Epic). That's where the problems are coming from, there are modifications that are done that seem to be illegal in the rules, but are never questioned.

Precisely. The rules are out of sync with what's commonly accepted.

Fortunately, the 2013 rule is better:

I think the 2013 rule is terrible. What's to stop someone from questioning the legality of someone's favorite putter when they're four holes into a tournament round and half a mile from the tournament director? Or questioning a player's entire bag?

 

[thechamp]

I'm just going to get a friend to question all of my discs before the tournament starts so the director has to give them the ok before my rounds.

 

[Fighter]

I'm absolutely shocked that is going to be the new rule. This is actually going in a worse direction. So, I can now get worked by some tool that just wants to dick with me??? I'm one to avoid getting mental-ed by somebody, but that could possibly be very, very annoying/end in fist-to-cuffs.

Also, answer I got back from Conrad Damon was pretty damn weak.

Another essentially... that's the way it's always been! statement.

Notable quotables...

"Changing the profile of a disc in a way that affects its flight is not allowed. You must use the disc as it was molded (except for small imperfections like flashing, the little edge of plastic that sometimes appears on the outside of the rim). You'll need to find a flat Roc if that's what you want. It's okay if it's flat when you buy it from Ching, but not if you modify it yourself." - Conrad

Wow, so this solidifies the bs for me. So. Ching can use a machine to stamp a disc to flatten the beast as this is some how a version of molding???? But I can't intentionally change it? Double standard for companies much? It's ok. I don't need a rule change. I just need to start my own company. Didn't know it was that simple to get around a rule. :wall:

 

[garublador]

How about changing the rule to better specify what it means to modify the disc? Anything that involves adding or removing material, or otherwise changing the texture of the material (ie, drilling holes, scoring) is not allowed. However, minor changes to shape (bending, flattening), color, or temperature are permitted.

This, to me seems like a reasonable rule. It explicitly allows currently accepted modifications such as tuning a disc by bending it, dying a disc, or freezing it overnight for snow rounds while also forbidding more drastic changes. By this rule change, flattening would be allowed as a minor shape change.

That's a much better rule or wording that would clarify the current rule.

There are no exceptions for bending your disc or changing the dome height.

Yes there are. Doing it on accident (e.g. leaving the disc in a hot car, warping from shipping or storage) or normal use can do that stuff and are considered "legal" by those that interpret the rule a certain way. The only thing the rule forbids is the "intent" which is just a figment of the player's imagination. That makes it a terrible interpretation becasue there is no difference between someone interpreting the rule that way and "cheating" and someone not interpreting the rule that way. Hitting a tree on accident is OK but hitting a tree on purpose for the intent of bending the disc (not as a back-stop to get the lie you want) is not OK. The exact same scenarios can be either legal or illegal and the only way to tell which it is is by reading a person's mind.

Rules should only govern a player's actions, not a player's thoughts. Because warping and changes in dome height can happen from either normal manufacturing inconsistencies, environmental forces, accidents or normal use, making all modifications illegal would make pretty much every disc illegal, so it doesn't make sense to do that. The only other option is to allow those types of variations from disc to disc no matter how they happen. Anything beyond that is a rule that governs a player's thought and that's a terrible rule.

 

[Chris A]

"Changing the profile of a disc in a way that affects its flight is not allowed. You must use the disc as it was molded (except for small imperfections like flashing, the little edge of plastic that sometimes appears on the outside of the rim). You'll need to find a flat Roc if that's what you want. It's okay if it's flat when you buy it from Ching, but not if you modify it yourself." - Conrad

Wow, so this solidifies the bs for me. So. Ching can use a machine to stamp a disc to flatten the beast as this is some how a version of molding???? But I can't intentionally change it? Double standard for companies much? It's ok. I don't need a rule change. I just need to start my own company. Didn't know it was that simple to get around a rule. :wall:

Not according to Chuck. If "Ching" takes a production Roc, uses the hot stamp process to flatten the roc, then they would need to pay to have that disc reevaluated. According to that statement along with that of Conrad all of the flat-top Ching Roc's are illegal due to post production modification and Ching not recertifying.

In reality this is just a argument as Ching never really did any hot stamping of the Roc's, Innova East did. In reality they were molded at Innova West, shipped to Innova East and they are the ones who Had/Have the ability to "Flat-Top" A Roc and still do.

The next argument would be that Innova West and Innova East are really 2 separate corporations. CHAMPION DISCS INC in the west and CAROLINA FLYING DISCS, INC in the east. What you have is West making the disc under "Innova" and "Carolina Flying Discs" are "Modding" the original molds from the west without having to get them re-approved via PDGA.

Now explain that please...