Thank you for proving my point.
-
Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
Lemon Lake and The Red ROC Disc Golf Club
- Thread starter Bart
- Start date
Thank you for proving my point.
Carrying the "grow the sport flag" can be a double edged sword. In my opinion, the sport's growth is P2P courses and ventures designed to make money with and off of the game. As this progresses, I think we will see a lot more profit driven decisions and enterprises. As this happens, many of the "little people", who have been the catalyst of the adolescence of the game, will feel the same frustrations as Bart.
Be careful what you wish for. Business has only an obligation to profit, nobody else is entitled to anything.
Be careful what you wish for. Business has only an obligation to profit, nobody else is entitled to anything.
Or just pull the whole mess out and put in a dog park. Far less negative PR. :|
A. J. MacInerney: American President 1995
"Oh, you only fight the fights you can win? You fight the fights that need fighting!"
Last edited:
The 300 signatures also prove why the sport won't grow or be taken seriously. When one of the common complaints is the owners are only into it for the money.....well, there you go.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2008
- Messages
- 4,783
This whole situation is deeply frustrating for you and your clubmates, understood.
However, I'm not sure what this petition drive is going to accomplish.
Most of the possible outcomes that I see are bad for the club.
Try to change your thought process from emphasizing all the wrongs and offenses done to the club and its members,
and think of how you can benefit the owners of the property - the Parks Dept.
They have ALL the cards.
If you can convince the Parks Dept leadership that (in some concrete, predictable, demonstrable, logical way) having your club run the DG park will benefit them, the others will be gone as soon as legally allowable.
The Parks Dept leadership is thinking "What can they do for me?"
And it seems like your club is thinking, "It's our right, those are terrible people, they have been bad to us, they must go!!"
Change takes effort, time, patience and causes uncertainty and ambiguity.
The Parks Dept leadership will not undergo this change unless you can prove to them, to their satisfaction that the change will benefit THEM (Parks Dept leadership/decision makers).
Just my two cents' worth.
However, I'm not sure what this petition drive is going to accomplish.
Most of the possible outcomes that I see are bad for the club.
Try to change your thought process from emphasizing all the wrongs and offenses done to the club and its members,
and think of how you can benefit the owners of the property - the Parks Dept.
They have ALL the cards.
If you can convince the Parks Dept leadership that (in some concrete, predictable, demonstrable, logical way) having your club run the DG park will benefit them, the others will be gone as soon as legally allowable.
The Parks Dept leadership is thinking "What can they do for me?"
And it seems like your club is thinking, "It's our right, those are terrible people, they have been bad to us, they must go!!"
Change takes effort, time, patience and causes uncertainty and ambiguity.
The Parks Dept leadership will not undergo this change unless you can prove to them, to their satisfaction that the change will benefit THEM (Parks Dept leadership/decision makers).
Just my two cents' worth.
That's more than two cents have been worth, in a long time.
You mean *gasp* take a more positive approach?
Look Bart, I don't want to trivialize all you and your Red Roc folks have done for the park and disc golf in general. It's a beautiful thing really. But I think the general consensus here on this board it is time to move on. Just like the name of the organization you have the petition with...Move On.
Like others have said...You make this your holy war the parks department may just pull every single basket and just install a bunch of nature trails. If I were the parks head I'd be seriously considering it even as a disc golfer.
-Dave
My suggestion isn't to move on....it's to take a different approach.
Petitions like this don't help, and might make things worse.
Unless I'm missing something major in the setup, the PDGA isn't going to do anything. And if they do, it won't make a difference, anyway.
It's what Discjunkie said---show the parks department how a change will benefit the parks department. They're not going to care about a false history of who's run tournaments, nor a "toxic environment" killing league play---particularly a claim that league play is not allowed, when it was only not allowed once. From a parks department perspective, being dragged into this fight is what they don't want.
Petitions like this don't help, and might make things worse.
Unless I'm missing something major in the setup, the PDGA isn't going to do anything. And if they do, it won't make a difference, anyway.
It's what Discjunkie said---show the parks department how a change will benefit the parks department. They're not going to care about a false history of who's run tournaments, nor a "toxic environment" killing league play---particularly a claim that league play is not allowed, when it was only not allowed once. From a parks department perspective, being dragged into this fight is what they don't want.
I'm curious what the "end goal" is in this situation. You want control of the complex? You want to run leagues/tournaments? You want the Svitkos removed? You want to be able to work on the courses? I don't know what the petition is going to accomplish.
deadbody
Eagle Member
This is worth far more than 2 pennies. It is entirely accurate.
I work for the government (not in parks but in an industry where we license and control quite a bit). If one entity came to me complaining about another with no firm plans of how to move forward in a way that helps the state, they get blown off.
Your end goal seems to be removing these folks with no plan to move forward. Without that plan, concrete and in writing, you have no shot.
You need to not just build a case for why they should be removed (and not just "She is mean and doesn't throw the frisbees"). Then you need to prove why your group will do it better.
Do you have club members who have a background in course design (as in have been credited with designs?) will they sign up to help with possible redesign? DO you have club members who can right now take over running the pro shop? Do they have solid experience in running a similar business so that the parks can make more money?
I feel for you, I really do. Watching something you love go down in flames because the people who took it over aren't doing a great job sucks hard.
But the solution isn't to go to the disinterested 3rd party silent owner complaining. Its to go to that party with a way to make it better and more attractive to them.
It's a little surprising how this thread is going. The people on this site represent the people we call "they" (the people who put in their time and energy to give the rest of us beautiful courses) as well as others... Brian and Bart have been giving us that since there were a fraction of courses out there. These are OG guys. Their local community came forward and said, enough... time to act.
Constructive criticism would add in strategies of what to do with the petition and the steps after that. I suggested taking this petition to a meeting with the Svitkos and the park to see if compromise could be had and if the mood could be elevated.
They are doing this petition. Advice telling them not to is already too late and unhelpful. Anyone can give advice on shouldas and wouldas... That advice is not even worth 2 pennies... sorry, that's true.
Constructive criticism would add in strategies of what to do with the petition and the steps after that. I suggested taking this petition to a meeting with the Svitkos and the park to see if compromise could be had and if the mood could be elevated.
They are doing this petition. Advice telling them not to is already too late and unhelpful. Anyone can give advice on shouldas and wouldas... That advice is not even worth 2 pennies... sorry, that's true.
So far as the design end goes, the Red Roc put those courses in. Brian Cummings and Red Roc were the guys driving Lemon Lake. They got Red in. They developed the contacts with the park to expand it into a complex. Those courses are there because of Red Roc.
That pro shop was there and my understanding was that Red Roc was running it. Jay Svitko got involved in that as a representative of Red Roc in the beginning. So I think they have experience doing that as well.
I'm with Noill on this one. This thread gets a little tone deaf/know it all. Brian Cummings and Red Roc DGC have been around for decades. They were around 20+ years ago when I got involved in disc golf. Bart has been involved in promoting disc golf at least as long as I've been playing. These guys built Lemon Lake. It exists because of their vision, their sweat. Somehow it got screwed up and they got pushed out. If I was them, it would have been devastating to work that hard, gain so much and then lose it.
You might not agree with what Bart is trying to do now, but a little respect from fellow disc golfers for the guys who built Lemon Lake isn't that much to ask, right? They already know mistakes have been made. They wouldn't be pushed out if mistakes hadn't been made. I'd like to keep this more positive with ideas that could help them.
You might not agree with what Bart is trying to do now, but a little respect from fellow disc golfers for the guys who built Lemon Lake isn't that much to ask, right? They already know mistakes have been made. They wouldn't be pushed out if mistakes hadn't been made. I'd like to keep this more positive with ideas that could help them.
bnbanbury
Eagle Member
I don't agree, the petition is not yet in to the parks department or PDGA and I agree with the sentiment that this may do more harm than good if presented in its current form. There is constructive criticism on this page about the need to present concrete ways in which the club would do things in a better way and provide a greater benefit to the parks department and PDGA. Based on what has been written, this comes across as a dispute that is very personal in nature and I just don't think that is going to be an angle that is going to make a lot of headway with local government.
None of that means that people are on the Svitkos side or don't want to recognize people that have been the backbone of a disc golf community. I don't want clubs or individuals that have put so much work into courses to lose them. I just don't think that this approach is one that the parks department is going to be receptive to.
Can we be in admiration for what they have done, in sympathy for what they have lost, in hopes they'll be successful....
And still think this petition is a bad idea?
Is it not constructive to suggest that it's a bad idea?
Or, since we're being asked to sign it, to ask for details (like what the PDGA's involvement is, and what specific action they hope the PDGA to take, and how it will help)?
And still think this petition is a bad idea?
Is it not constructive to suggest that it's a bad idea?
Or, since we're being asked to sign it, to ask for details (like what the PDGA's involvement is, and what specific action they hope the PDGA to take, and how it will help)?
I didn't tell them not to, I'm just not sure what it will accomplish. Again, they want the folks running it removed? Will they commit to running the pro shop?
I have been involved in some courses. I co-designed and built two courses and have redesigned three others. Four are at county parks and one was at a YMCA camp. I busted my butt on all of the projects, as did some other people. The YMCA course has been changed due to buildings being put in. One of the redesigns has been neglected and is barely playable. The other three are thriving. The point is I have/had no control over something I didn't/don't actually own. It's a bummer they feel slighted. Move on.
RRDGC did move on. This is a redress of a local issue. The club is the correct representative for this issue. The club has opted to promote a petition. The petition is now actively being signed.
The petition doesn't have to be guaranteed to work in order to justify its existence. A petition is a tool and a stepping stone. Who knows yet the follow-up actions that the club will or won't make.
The locals are worried about their beautiful complex...one that hosted worlds... Yeah. Just move on..? They have rejected that advice. You move on.
The petition doesn't have to be guaranteed to work in order to justify its existence. A petition is a tool and a stepping stone. Who knows yet the follow-up actions that the club will or won't make.
The locals are worried about their beautiful complex...one that hosted worlds... Yeah. Just move on..? They have rejected that advice. You move on.
Red Roc was in the process of being pushed out when they hosted World's in 2010. That was a long time ago. They have had all sorts of meeting with the park since then to try to work this out. Nothing has worked. Now the courses are in need of serious attention/redesign and they don't have a voice. The petition to me seems like a Hail Mary. It probably won't work, but what are you going to do? Slink away quietly or try to cause a stink? I think the Club has decided to cause a stink.
The PDGA thing is that the Pro Shop gets money to be a regional development center. They hold meetings about PDGA stuff, course design and what not. It seems like a separate issue, but I guess the club thinks the threat of losing that money might make somebody blink. Again, Hail Mary. Again, they have been hammering away at this issue for years, they feel like the future of the complex is at stake and nothing has been working. So Hail Mary it is...
The PDGA thing is that the Pro Shop gets money to be a regional development center. They hold meetings about PDGA stuff, course design and what not. It seems like a separate issue, but I guess the club thinks the threat of losing that money might make somebody blink. Again, Hail Mary. Again, they have been hammering away at this issue for years, they feel like the future of the complex is at stake and nothing has been working. So Hail Mary it is...
Two of the courses I've been involved in have been part of Worlds, TWICE.
I have a different opinion and you're going to get a little "hissy"? Aren't you a moderator? Sorry, administrator?
Similar threads
