Let's discuss the caddy/kids rule

[seedlings]

Have any rules committee persons given any definite clarifications of:
1) is it definitely a penalty-assessed violation to have a 13yo daughter as caddie?
2) is it definitely acceptable for another caddie to call a violation?

 

[Olorin]

Here are some interesting rules...

Competition Manual (CM) 3.03 Player Misconduct

CM 3.03B If a player violates the above standard, the Tournament Director may opt, in their sole discretion, to issue a tournament warning for a first offense (except as specified in 3.03.C). Otherwise, the Tournament Director will immediately disqualify the player.

Then...
CM 3.03B.7 Overt failure or refusal to enforce the rules of disc golf during competition (see 801.02.B, Enforcement).

And in the ORDG 8.01. Enforcement
Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. A call must be made promptly to be enforceable (except for misplays).

So as I read this, Paige Pierce and the other players on KT's lead card did not enforce a rule about the age of caddies, so at a minimum they should have been warned by the TD but he also had the right to immediately disqualify each player. This reads to me as the letter of the rules.

Of course, this will never be done, but I find it interesting. My intention is not to criticize or stir up even more controversy. I just found it interesting.

In a similar fashion, when one player fails to call a foot fault, the TD could warn them the first time and should disqualify them the second time they fail to call it. Am I reading these rules correctly?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Have any rules committee persons given any definite clarifications of:
1) is it definitely a penalty-assessed violation to have a 13yo daughter as caddie?
2) is it definitely acceptable for another caddie to call a violation?

Just to clarify: per Mike Krupicka, caddy rules are a Competition Committee issue, not a Rules Committee issue:

Caddie rules are in the Competition Manual which is handled by the Competition Committee.

The Rules Committee handles the Official Rules of Disc Golf and associated Q&As.

Might seem like a minor distinction, as sanctioned play is governed by all of it, but the point is, they're two different committed, both under the auspices of the PDGA.

 

[Olorin]

Have any rules committee persons given any definite clarifications of:
1) is it definitely a penalty-assessed violation to have a 13yo daughter as caddie?
2) is it definitely acceptable for another caddie to call a violation?

Since there are 2 threads going on this not all information is being seen here. In the Champion's Cup thread, Mike Krupicka, the Rules committee chairman said,

"Caddie rules are in the Competition Manual which is handled by the Competition Committee.
The Rules Committee handles the Official Rules of Disc Golf and associated Q&As."

So this is not a Rules Committee issue and the ORDG do not apply to this case. Only the Competition Manual applies and the Competition Committee Chairman, Mike Sullivan, has the authority to make the definitive ruling.

 

[Olorin]

2) is it definitely acceptable for another caddie to call a violation?

This is an inaccurate question. Elaine King's intention was honorable. She knew of the case where Val Jenkins had been disqualified in 2018 for misconduct by her caddie. (https://www.pdga.com/announcements/statement-valarie-jenkins-disqualification-santa-cruz-masters-cup) Elaine has explained that her thinking was that she was concerned that KT could be disqualified (according to the old rule) so she was trying to warn KT to correct the problem. It just happened that Paige's caddie is a friend of Elaine's. Contacting Paige's caddie turned out to be a poor choice that had many unintended negative consequences. There was never any intention to have a caddie call a violation and the intention was not to get Paige to call a violation, even though it could be interpreted that way.

tl;dr-- per the rules a caddie can never directly call a rules violation

 

[Olorin]

Just to clarify: per Mike Krupicka, caddy rules are a Competition Committee issue, not a Rules Committee issue:

Might seem like a minor distinction, as sanctioned play is governed by all of it, but the point is, they're two different committed, both under the auspices of the PDGA.

BINGO! This is a crucially important distinction that few people seem to realize. This issue has nothing to do with courtesy violations or anything in the ORDG. The relevant parts of the CM are 3.05 Carts, Caddies, and Groups and 1.13 Youth Safety.

 

[txmxer]

This is an inaccurate question. Elaine King's intention was honorable. She knew of the case where Val Jenkins had been disqualified in 2018 for misconduct by her caddie. (https://www.pdga.com/announcements/statement-valarie-jenkins-disqualification-santa-cruz-masters-cup) Elaine has explained that her thinking was that she was concerned that KT could be disqualified (according to the old rule) so she was trying to warn KT to correct the problem. It just happened that Paige's caddie is a friend of Elaine's. Contacting Paige's caddie turned out to be a poor choice that had many unintended negative consequences. There was never any intention to have a caddie call a violation and the intention was not to get Paige to call a violation, even though it could be interpreted that way.

tl;dr-- per the rules a caddie can never directly call a rules violation

I believe it was stated that Elaine first tried to contact KT directly, but when that failed (KT wasn't looking at her phone), she pinged PP's caddie to get her to tell KT to check her phone.

 

[Dcinmd]

I also thought about the role as commentator. Definitely not a commentators role.

What is the role of a board member of an organization? A bit different from a commentator.

 

[txmxer]

What is the role of a board member of an organization? A bit different from a commentator.

But does that translate to being a rules official to a specific event?

I don't think it should. JMO.

I've not run an event and learned pretty much all I think I know from these discussions here, but basically there is a chain of command for an event. You are either part of it or you are not.

 

[Olorin]

I believe it was stated that Elaine first tried to contact KT directly, but when that failed (KT wasn't looking at her phone), she pinged PP's caddie to get her to tell KT to check her phone.

I think that is what Elaine said, but I don't remember every detail of the order of events. I wasn't trying to rehash every detail of what happened. I truly believe that Elaine acted from good intentions, but in her haste she didn't anticipate all of the unintended consequences and how it might look.

Everyone who is interested needs to...
1) Be charitable and give Elaine the benefit of the doubt. She has demonstrated her character and integrity over her 35+ years of elite disc golf. People need to stop immediately thinking the worst of people and attributing evil motives when they don't know all of the facts.
2) Listen to her interview with Terry Miller on SmashboxxTV

 

[Olorin]

What is the role of a board member of an organization? A bit different from a commentator.

The CM .12 Tournament Officials covers this
1.12A Only the Tournament Director, those Certified Officials that have been designated by the Tournament Director, or a designated PDGA Marshal, are Tournament Officials for a given event.
B. Only Tournament Officials may make rulings at PDGA-sanctioned events beyond those calls allowed by the rules to be made by the players or playing group themselves.
C. Spectators are not Tournament Officials and may NOT make rulings. Players in the event who are not designated Tournament Officials and are not actively playing in the round (either have finished or have not yet started) are considered spectators.

And 3.05 Carts, Caddies and Groups
D. Caddies are not part of the player group for the purposes of making group calls or rulings.
G. In PDGA Majors and Elite Series events, the group consists of the players themselves, each player's individual caddie, any active Tournament staff such as leaderboard attendants, Tournament Officials, etc. and any credentialed media ONLY. No other people may be with the playing group. All others (including players who have already finished their round) are considered spectators and must remain in designated spectator areas away from the playing group.

 

[Olorin]

What is the role of a board member of an organization? A bit different from a commentator.

Elaine has stated that she was acting as a concerned individual, not in any official capacity. She was not acting as a PDGA BOD member or as commentator for DGN or as a tournament official.

 

[Future_Primitive]

Elaine has stated that she was acting as a concerned individual, not in any official capacity. She was not acting as a PDGA BOD member or as commentator for DGN or as a tournament official.

Sorry that just doesnt fly. She was on the mic and is on the BOD, any action she takes is going to be perceived as the PDGA BOD taking action due to her standing. Of course the PDGA is still going the cowardly route of sticking their heads in the sand and hoping for their next screw up to overshadow this one. Still havent heard any apologies from EK or the PDGA for disrupting the Major. All I have seen is Kristin left alone to deal with the fallout. She is a class act and more grown up than the PDGA BOD members are acting.

 

[Countchunkula]

Elaine has stated that she was acting as a concerned individual, not in any official capacity. She was not acting as a PDGA BOD member or as commentator for DGN or as a tournament official.

I don't know that you can separate those roles. For a BOD or executive level role, it's not the kind of responsibility that you can turn on and off. Especially when we are talking about a decision that impacts a PDGA tournament in progress.

FWIW, I don't have any reason to doubt Elaine had the best of intentions.

 

[dmoore1998]

Elaine has stated that she was acting as a concerned individual, not in any official capacity. She was not acting as a PDGA BOD member or as commentator for DGN or as a tournament official.

I don't know that you get to distinguish "how you're acting" when you act in that situation. I don't think she's acting as a tournament official because she's not (i assume)...but you can't be a PDGA BOD member and a commentator and then say "I'm acting outside those roles while I'm taking action while doing those roles".

She might get away with saying "I wasn't acting as a commentator" if she does it while not commentating. Being a PDGA BOD member though isn't a thing she does sometimes (like commentating) that has a specific start and stop point. It's something she IS...24 hours a day, as long as she holds that role.

Her words may not carry the same gravitas as if she said it speaking formally for the BOD...but it certainly carries more weight than some other random person saying it because she's on the PDGA BOD and speaking to a PDGA rule.

It's no different than if I walked up to an employee outside of work and said "You being pregnant is a real issue for the company" and then claimed "I wasn't speaking as her boss, I was just speaking as an acquaintance of hers". I'm her boss, speaking to her about her job. Elaine is a PDGA BOD member and speaking to a PDGA member about PDGA policies.

I absolutely think she had the best of intentions. I hope her comment about not acting as a PDGA BOD member at the time was simply an attempt to clarify that as a matter of practice the PDGA BOD does not monitor this stuff actively in an attempt to act as a de facto tournament official. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised she's allowed to commentate while being on the board. That doesn't seem like a good setup for either her ability to commentate openly her opinions, or her clout as being seen as speaking for the board.

 

[chevis]

i wonder how this disscussion would be going if ek didn't send any texts & commentated that kristin's daughter was only 9, but didn't mention the rule. would someone else caught that & snitched

 

[dehaas]

i wonder how this disscussion would be going if ek didn't send any texts & commentated that kristin's daughter was only 9, but didn't mention the rule. would someone else caught that & snitched

Personally I doubt it. The card doesn't like to call the obvious stuff like foot faults and time delays.

It's a weird new rule, I'd be amazed if any of the other card members knew it.

 

[Olorin]

...The card doesn't like to call the obvious stuff like foot faults and time delays...

It looks to me like Paige Pierce, Sarah Hokom, and Ohn Scoggins could have been warned and even later disqualified for NOT enforcing the caddie violation of Kristin Tattar...

Competition Manual (CM) 3.03 Player Misconduct
CM 3.03.B.7 Overt failure or refusal to enforce the rules of disc golf during competition (see 801.02.B, Enforcement).

ORDG 801.02.B Enforcement
Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. A call must be made promptly to be enforceable (except for misplays).

And the penalty for violating 3.03.B.7--

CM 3.03.B If a player violates the above standard, the Tournament Director may opt, in their sole discretion, to issue a tournament warning for a first offense (except as specified in 3.03.C). Otherwise, the Tournament Director will immediately disqualify the player.

Am I reading this correctly?

 

[biscoe]

It looks to me like Paige Pierce, Sarah Hokom, and Ohn Scoggins could have been warned and even later disqualified for NOT enforcing the caddie violation of Kristin Tattar...

Competition Manual (CM) 3.03 Player Misconduct
CM 3.03.B.7 Overt failure or refusal to enforce the rules of disc golf during competition (see 801.02.B, Enforcement).

I guess it depends on whether you consider the Competition Manual to fall within the Rules of Disc Golf- imo it does not. Whether it is a good idea to have these 2 documents overseen by completely different groups of people when there is an obvious intention for them to mesh seamlessly is for someone else to decide. The Comp Manual is a somewhat odd combo of stuff directed at players and stuff directed at TD's. Section 3 (Player Code of Conduct) contains stuff that ought to be in the rules as well as stuff with no impact on players at all (vendor policies, etc).

 

[krupicka]

Whether it is a good idea to have these 2 documents overseen by completely different groups of people when there is an obvious intention for them to mesh seamlessly is for someone else to decide.

They used to be a single document but were split apart a while ago. They work in concert together, but some of which goes where is fuzzy and odd because they are separate documents. Both reference the other. One of the things we tried to address in 2022 was to get them in sync where they had different rules for the same scenario.