Let's discuss the caddy/kids rule

[biscoe]

They used to be a single document but were split apart a while ago. They work in concert together, but some of which goes where is fuzzy and odd because they are separate documents. Both reference the other. One of the things we tried to address in 2022 was to get them in sync where they had different rules for the same scenario.

You guys (current RC) have done yeoman work on cleaning up what was a fairly big mess at one point. IMO the Competition Manual should not be directed at the players at all but rather the TD's. Player stuff should be moved to the Rulebook.

 

[ru4por]

I think professional disc golfers should be aware of EVERY PDGA rule. I think professional disc golfers should follow the rules. I think all professional disc golfers should call all violations. I think getting called for a violation of the rules should be the norm and not have an impact on the mental game of a professional disc golfer. This is their job.

This thread is going to get bogged down in ancillary nuances that have nothing to do with this situation. It does not matter that this was a mother and child. It does not matter how the violator was notified. In today's electronic world, players are going to get notified by family, friends and other players of violations all the time. No way to stop this. This is not about emotions, it is not about fair or unfair. This is about a rule violation, identification and resolution.

 

[Steve West]

Thanks, glad someone noticed.

What you suggest would be an appealing way to split the rules, and one I advocated for a while back. I've since changed my mind.

The conceptual split we're working with is that the Rules of Play are what the players need to play any event that says it is using PDGA rules. The Competition Manual is what players need to know to play a PDGA-sanctioned event.

So, players in PDGA tournaments should be aware of everything in both sides. As Mike pointed out, the important thing is that both parts should not have rules that are repeated or that conflict.

The split you want between what players need vs. what only TDs need is not between the Rules of Play vs. Competition Manual, it is between the ROP+CM and everything else.

The things directed at TDs are not in one neat book, but can be found using links in the Events and Courses tabs on the front page of PDGA.com.

 

[Olorin]

I guess it depends on whether you consider the Competition Manual to fall within the Rules of Disc Golf- imo it does not. .

Thanks John, that makes sense. I was wrong in post #38. I got confused by the word "rules" in CM 3.03.B.7 "Overt failure or refusal to enforce the rules of disc golf during competition". I considered the Competition Manual to be rules, but apparently they are not. Or 3.03.B.7 only refers to the rules in the ORDG.

Once again, a key point is that this situation with KT's caddie falls wholly within the Competition Manual and not the ORDG. Do you think that most of the pro players on the DGPT understand this distinction clearly enough?

If the CM are not rules, such as in 3.03.B then what are they?

 

[biscoe]

Thanks John, that makes sense. I was wrong in post #38. I got confused by the word "rules" in CM 3.03.B.7 "Overt failure or refusal to enforce the rules of disc golf during competition". I considered the Competition Manual to be rules, but apparently they are not. Or 3.03.B.7 only refers to the rules in the ORDG.

Once again, a key point is that this situation with KT's caddie falls wholly within the Competition Manual and not the ORDG. Do you think that most of the pro players on the DGPT understand this distinction clearly enough?

I don't think the players understand it at all. The general disdain of the players for the rules is saddening- no reason they would have distinctions between the CM and the Rules figured out.

If the CM are not rules, such as in 3.03.B then what are they?

Good question.

 

[biscoe]

Evidently there was some "who's allowed inside the ropes?" drama this past weekend as well. I cannot say more at this time.

 

[dehaas]

Evidently there was some "who's allowed inside the ropes?" drama this past weekend as well. I cannot say more at this time.

At DDO?

 

[txmxer]

Evidently there was some "who's allowed inside the ropes?" drama this past weekend as well. I cannot say more at this time.

Thought I saw some players that were spectating late in the round "inside the ropes". I wondered about it given the recent dust up.

 

[ru4por]

Thought I saw some players that were spectating late in the round "inside the ropes". I wondered about it given the recent dust up.

I wonder how spectators, some paying for VIP access, feel about players and friends getting inside the ropes?

I shall remain steadfast in my take. There should be NOBODY, outside of media, officials, players and caddies inside the ropes. The application and permission for media, officials and caddies should be rigorous and tightly controlled/enforced. It is where the DGPT wants the tour to go, start acting like it.

 

[Graymulligan]

I wonder how spectators, some paying for VIP access, feel about players and friends getting inside the ropes?.

I'll throw in my 2 cents on this one as it seems relevant. A friend and I had tickets to Champion's Cup, "regular tickets" on Saturday and VIP for Sunday. There were 75 total VIP tickets per day, and given how tight the holes are at Jackson, it made sense.

In the morning, we followed the lead card for FPO, and the vibe was very chill. The crowd was well-mannered, and it seemed like everyone realized there were 4 or 5 kids (including KT's daughter once she moved back) in the crowd and made sure they had lines to get up front of the group so they could see. Overall it was a great experience.

We grabbed lunch and went back out to follow the MPO lead card and it was a very different experience. We recognized a lot of the folks from the FPO card, however there were a LOT of people that shouldn't have bene there:

• Additional marshals that weren't assigned to that group. There were I think 11 or 12 people with Quiet signs at one point, many of whom had been marhalling other groups that came over to watch the MPO lead card when they were done (we stood behind a group of 4 who discussed how awesome it was that they could just come over and stand in front).
  
• Other pros and their friends. I won't "name and shame" anyone, but they were players who we were familiar with who came out to watch the lead card.
  
• Spectators without VIP lanyards. Around the 7th or 8th hole, there were a handful of folks that decided to just come out between the ropes and join the group, and none of the marshals said a word. At one point a VIP spectator said something to one of the marshals and essentially got "we don't want to hassle anyone, there's plenty of room".

The extra people, of course, all wanted to be up front where they could see. So we went from a morning session where we had the opportunity to see everything to standing three deep behind a bunch of folks who weren't even supposed to be there, fighting for every square foot of space. I wish cell coverage had been better, because we would have gone and watched Paul shoot lights out a couple of groups ahead. It didn't ruin the experience, but it put a damper on how much fun it was, and was in stark contrast to the morning session. I get it, people want to see the MPO lead card, but if the tour is going to sell special tickets to a group for better access, ensuring that access isn't then handed to a bunch of other people needs to happen too.

(Overall the weekend was a blast, and we absolutely got our money's worth. This is just me nitpicking something that wasn't executed well)

 

[dehaas]

I'll throw in my 2 cents on this one as it seems relevant. A friend and I had tickets to Champion's Cup, "regular tickets" on Saturday and VIP for Sunday. There were 75 total VIP tickets per day, and given how tight the holes are at Jackson, it made sense.

In the morning, we followed the lead card for FPO, and the vibe was very chill. The crowd was well-mannered, and it seemed like everyone realized there were 4 or 5 kids (including KT's daughter once she moved back) in the crowd and made sure they had lines to get up front of the group so they could see. Overall it was a great experience.

We grabbed lunch and went back out to follow the MPO lead card and it was a very different experience. We recognized a lot of the folks from the FPO card, however there were a LOT of people that shouldn't have bene there:

• Additional marshals that weren't assigned to that group. There were I think 11 or 12 people with Quiet signs at one point, many of whom had been marhalling other groups that came over to watch the MPO lead card when they were done (we stood behind a group of 4 who discussed how awesome it was that they could just come over and stand in front).
  
• Other pros and their friends. I won't "name and shame" anyone, but they were players who we were familiar with who came out to watch the lead card.
  
• Spectators without VIP lanyards. Around the 7th or 8th hole, there were a handful of folks that decided to just come out between the ropes and join the group, and none of the marshals said a word. At one point a VIP spectator said something to one of the marshals and essentially got "we don't want to hassle anyone, there's plenty of room".

The extra people, of course, all wanted to be up front where they could see. So we went from a morning session where we had the opportunity to see everything to standing three deep behind a bunch of folks who weren't even supposed to be there, fighting for every square foot of space. I wish cell coverage had been better, because we would have gone and watched Paul shoot lights out a couple of groups ahead. It didn't ruin the experience, but it put a damper on how much fun it was, and was in stark contrast to the morning session. I get it, people want to see the MPO lead card, but if the tour is going to sell special tickets to a group for better access, ensuring that access isn't then handed to a bunch of other people needs to happen too.

(Overall the weekend was a blast, and we absolutely got our money's worth. This is just me nitpicking something that wasn't executed well)

The thing is though, the PDGA hosted that event. If you were to pick an instance to express displeasure in paying for VIP access when exclusivity seemed irrelevant I think this would be the best opportunity.

 

[ru4por]

The thing is though, the PDGA hosted that event. If you were to pick an instance to express displeasure in paying for VIP access when exclusivity seemed irrelevant I think this would be the best opportunity.

As opposed to a DGPT event?

 

[Graymulligan]

The thing is though, the PDGA hosted that event. If you were to pick an instance to express displeasure in paying for VIP access when exclusivity seemed irrelevant I think this would be the best opportunity.

I've read this a few times now, and I honestly can't figure out what your point is. What does the governing body have to do with the situation in this case?

(Not my intention to be a jerk, I'm honestly just not sure what you're trying to say here)

 

[txmxer]

Maybe it's that the PDGA doesn't run as many big events? Less prepared for such things?

Or the DGPT is trying to create a marketable product more so than the PDGA? They have a more vested interest in controlling event access?

 

[ru4por]

Maybe it's that the PDGA doesn't run as many big events? Less prepared for such things?

Or the DGPT is trying to create a marketable product more so than the PDGA? They have a more vested interest in controlling event access?

I have not seen any real appreciable difference between PDGA events and DGPT events, in terms of crowd control. But the only recent event I have attended is DGLO during the pandemic. Nobody was allowed on the course.....except friends of players. Not sure how they got there, not sure why they were allowed. I was in a picnic area, across a road, up a hill.

 

[_MTL_]

The irony of these comments is I was blasted on reddit for being overly forceful of the ticket policy and requiring people who were supposed to be behind the ropes to stay behind the ropes. It's certainly a classic "can't please everyone" scenario.

But to address the crowd control questions, there's not an answer. There are no rules in place for spectating - the only rules that exist for anything close is that you can only have one person with you as a player in ES and majors. Every venue does crowd control differently as there are no two places a like.

It's also important to address the overall vibe of DGPT vs PDGA. We are partners and work together at all ES and Majors. There is no friction and no us vs them or "we do this better." It's all internet chatter.

 

[araytx]

I've read this a few times now, and I honestly can't figure out what your point is. What does the governing body have to do with the situation in this case?

(Not my intention to be a jerk, I'm honestly just not sure what you're trying to say here)

My guess is that he is saying that the Champion's Cup is the PDGA's event. Like Worlds, the PDGA runs it. Unlike DGPT events, or, for example, the USDGC which is Innova's event.

So *I think* he is saying that the "right" time to complain about a PDGA rule of play or a PDGA Competition Manual rule/regulation/whatever, is at an event hosted by the PDGA.

 

[txmxer]

The irony of these comments is I was blasted on reddit for being overly forceful of the ticket policy and requiring people who were supposed to be behind the ropes to stay behind the ropes. It's certainly a classic "can't please everyone" scenario.

But to address the crowd control questions, there's not an answer. There are no rules in place for spectating - the only rules that exist for anything close is that you can only have one person with you as a player in ES and majors. Every venue does crowd control differently as there are no two places a like.

It's also important to address the overall vibe of DGPT vs PDGA. We are partners and work together at all ES and Majors. There is no friction and no us vs them or "we do this better." It's all internet chatter.

This is not intended to be a dig, but on the issue of "can't please everyone " and the above posted experience—I think you prioritize the commitment made when you sold a VIP experience.

It's clear that he paid for something that others took for free.

"You" = PDGA or whomever is running the event.

 

[_MTL_]

This is not intended to be a dig, but on the issue of "can't please everyone " and the above posted experience—I think you prioritize the commitment made when you sold a VIP experience.

It's clear that he paid for something that others took for free.

"You" = PDGA or whomever is running the event.

100%. And whenever I saw it, I removed people in the incorrect areas for that very reason. I hate that not everyone with the event did the same.

 

[dehaas]

My guess is that he is saying that the Champion's Cup is the PDGA's event. Like Worlds, the PDGA runs it. Unlike DGPT events, or, for example, the USDGC which is Innova's event.

So *I think* he is saying that the "right" time to complain about a PDGA rule of play or a PDGA Competition Manual rule/regulation/whatever, is at an event hosted by the PDGA.

Yeah, pretty much. As MTL said, no special rules for spectators as far as the PDGA is concerned, but it still presents an optics issue. Actual written rule about children as caddies…enforced about as best as possible IMO. Governing body can't blatantly ignore enforcement without looking bad, but then people hammer them with the don't make a fuss over kids angle. They're damned either way.

Again, no official rules as far as who is allowed inside the ropes…just rules surrounding caddies. It just looks bad that the PDGA handled the caddy situation but then has paying VIP ticket holders saying they paid for something exclusive and that experience was tarnished because nobody wanted to be "that guy" and uphold the concept of exclusive privileges. And we wonder why players don't make calls?

That's the problem…we want to be super cereal when it's a matter of growing the sport and we want outside dg rich eyes and money but everybody is a chill hippie at heart and doesn't want to make waves. As it stands right now we're stuck in between the two and it comes across as minor league.

A majority of what people gripe about is stuff that doesn't impact 98% of PDGA tournaments. In reality all this stuff is DGPT gripes…and let's be real…if dg is gonna "legit make it" at that point it's fans paying for entertainment value. So things needs to be addressed on that level that simply don't apply to local c tiers.

I understand the PDGA and DGPT saying they're partners but at some point either the PDGA needs to step up and expand some rules surrounding pro level events or stick to simple rules of play and then it's the matter of the DGPT taming their circus.