Leverage

[Chains Bailey]

Leverage

- power or ability to act effectively or to influence people.

- to exert power or influence on.



For all the time I have been around the game of disc golf, I have never thought any player would put themselves in a position of power over/equal to the disc manufacturers. I did not even believe that a players name on a disc moved the needle on on sales to a great degree.

I was wrong on both accounts.


The question I pose is which player/players do you believe have enough leverage to demand/command a certain level of sponsorship or they will simply go to another sponsor?

Not simply which players are worth the investment from the various sponsors, but which can dictate the negotiations to a high degree in their own personal interests.


I have come to the conclusion that only one has ever had this power and it is Paul McBeth.

PPierce is close, IMO, but not quite there yet. Her sales are hot right now, so we will see if she proves me wrong.

I was thinking maybe Ken Climo, but at that time in the game, I do not believe that there was enough money moving, awareness and participation compared to todays numbers. Add to that, the media exposure of present day and I think the disc companies during that time wanted him for sure, but I do not think he could walk into any manufacturer and say "I want X Y and Z or I am going to another manufacturer'" and have it hold any real weight.

I realize that many players can create an immediate spike in sales, many are loved and have loyal / longtime fans and many are household names in our small neighborhood....but to have leverage OVER the company who is sponsoring you is unheard of, IMO.

Paul McBeth is the only player to have that leverage in the history of our sport.

Change my mind.














Just kidding.....

Anyone have any others that they think hold this much power?


NOTE: Not a FanBoy' - James Conrad is who I pull for, VIRGINIA baby! I know....Paul lives in VA, but he is a California guy at his roots. Just find it interesting that the player/sponsor dichotomy has done a complete 180 in terms of at least one player.

 

[GoobyPls]

Lloyd Weema. The man single-handedly changed the rules for the biggest competitions in the sport.

That's leverage.

 

[Chains Bailey]

Lloyd Weema. The man single-handedly changed the rules for the biggest competitions in the sport.

That's leverage.

Damn, forgot him! And I am the president of his fan club. Hope he does not read this thread.


Also, I think I made a horrible mistake in posting a thread that includes the names Paul McBeth and Ken Climo in close proximity--- posters, please do not drift this thread into a GOAT' debate. I will happily take BBQ and Pizza over that debate.

 

[jakebake91]

Hmmmm. Great question. What about maybe a guy like Seppo? He seems pretty important to Prodigy. Otherwise, I got nothing. Sexton? IDK why he'd walk away from the sexybird deal, but I'd imagine Innova wouldn't want him walking. But, they also let Paul go, so I don't think any Innova players are in this discussion.

So, my vote would be Seppo or Simon. Neither seem likely at all, but they might be able grasp some leverage.

 

[Chains Bailey]

I should add that there were far fewer disc manufacturers in the days of KC, so not as many companies to compete with for those disc golfer dollars. Therefore, a big time player may not hold as much value in the overall sales scheme. Plus, lack of social media relegated even the top players to a level of obscurity even low level pros now would shudder at.

 

[Countchunkula]

Shouldn't the player with the longest levers have the most leverage?:|

 

[Cgkdisc]

Only the person or persons who combined have controlling interest in a business or person(s) who personally own the patent that's core to the business truly have controlling leverage. Paul and any others could negotiate a deal only up to their fair portion of the cost of goods or services sold as determined by the controlling business owners or their proxy director. That's why incentives related to future sales make the most sense to balance the potential income generating value of a top player with appropriate expense management for the company.

 

[elmexdela]

Only the person or persons who combined have controlling interest in a business or person(s) who personally own the patent that's core to the business truly have controlling leverage. Paul and any others could negotiate a deal only up to their fair portion of the cost of goods or services sold as determined by the controlling business owners or their proxy director. That's why incentives related to future sales make the most sense to balance the potential income generating value of a top player with appropriate expense management for the company.

can you put this into words so the rest of us without an mba can understand

 

[Hampstead]

If Eagle can get his mental game tightened up, maintain his social media presence and somehow manage to win Worlds or USDGC, he's young enough that I could see him having some leverage within the next few years.

 

[Chains Bailey]

Only the person or persons who combined have controlling interest in a business or person(s) who personally own the patent that's core to the business truly have controlling leverage. Paul and any others could negotiate a deal only up to their fair portion of the cost of goods or services sold as determined by the controlling business owners or their proxy director. That's why incentives related to future sales make the most sense to balance the potential income generating value of a top player with appropriate expense management for the company.

Agreed to a point - I think.

I believe you are referring to an extreme place on the spectrum of business. Or put more simply, you are pointing out that the maker of the hammer can ultimately take away the hammer from the great carpenters if they wish.

IF my understanding of your highbrow words is correct, then I think your point is valid, but not option ending for the player. As the patent (Hammer) is shared among many companies, ONE of the companies taking it away does not stop the player (Carpenter) from just going to another company.

 

[Muddyboots]

My understanding is that Prodigy is player owned, to some extent. So those folks def have leverage, even if it is a slightly different avenue. I actually respect that model, even if it is just a different carrot/incentive.

 

[DiscFifty]

We live in a world where the 18-30 year old is or will be the majority soon enough. (Yes, there's a reason for all the peeps running for potus telling us about all the free stuff you will get if you vote for them. lol..) So to get that leverage, the player has to be young enough to attract the younger crowd. Paul and Paige are still young enough, but I think they both understand that they are almost 30 and the time is...NOW. With that said...

I always thought Simon would be the guy with the most leverage. But it appears he's just happy being Simon, making enough to have bills paid while not putting the spotlight and pressure on himself to be the next Paul. I don't think he wants to be that guy by any means.

Eagle, imop has tried "everything" to become a social media influencer/star. I think he has the best chance to be the next Paul but he's going to have to "stabilize" his overall persona, like Paul has done, so people can get used to him which is important for long term branding imop. One he matures a bit more....mentally...I think the future of disc golf is in his hands and he will be able to write his own ticket.

Nikko - man..talk about a missed opportunity. He was right there with Paul the entire time. But due to image instability, immaturity on the course, etc, he became the guy we didn't mind watching, but certainly never wanted to be like. I think he also realizes "now's the time!! " so he seems to have mellowed out a bit, has a new sponsorship, etc. Will be interesting to see how 2020 plays out for him. Like I said before.. dude has the look for marketing. I could see a line of clothes before a line of discs with his name on it.

 

[elmexdela]

We live in a world where the 18-30 year old is or will be the majority soon enough. (Yes, there's a reason for all the peeps running for potus telling us about all the free stuff you will get if you vote for them. lol..) So to get that leverage, the player has to be young enough to attract the younger crowd. Paul and Paige are still young enough, but I think they both understand that they are almost 30 and the time is...NOW. With that said...

I always thought Simon would be the guy with the most leverage. But it appears he's just happy being Simon, making enough to have bills paid while not putting the spotlight and pressure on himself to be the next Paul. I don't think he wants to be that guy by any means.

Eagle, imop has tried "everything" to become a social media influencer/star. I think he has the best chance to be the next Paul but he's going to have to "stabilize" his overall persona, like Paul has done, so people can get used to him which is important for long term branding imop. One he matures a bit more....mentally...I think the future of disc golf is in his hands and he will be able to write his own ticket.

Nikko - man..talk about a missed opportunity. He was right there with Paul the entire time. But due to image instability, immaturity on the course, etc, he became the guy we didn't mind watching, but certainly never wanted to be like. I think he also realizes "now's the time!! " so he seems to have mellowed out a bit, has a new sponsorship, etc. Will be interesting to see how 2020 plays out for him. Like I said before.. dude has the look for marketing. I could see a line of clothes before a line of discs with his name on it.

nikko is the most entertaining person to watch however i do not want to play like nikko on the course

i do appreciate nikko showing human emotions where as a lot of athletes try to keep this stoic front which seems to take away from the human experience

 

[Chains Bailey]

Eagle, Nikko and Simon are definitely big time, but still do not hold the level of leverage that PMcBeth does.

The ability to dictate terms to a very high degree, and or over, a sponsor.

I still only see one.

 

[Cgkdisc]

No top player in any sport can dictate, just simply request. Some can request and get more than others. The economics of the sport and the companies supporting it determine the maximum request that can be granted without over-reaching and risking financial failure.

 

[Chains Bailey]

No top player in any sport can dictate, just simply request. Some can request and get more than others. The economics of the sport and the companies supporting it determine the maximum request that can be granted without over-reaching and risking financial failure.

True - the players can only request and there are common sense limits on what they can request. We have to assume that the players are aware of the basic ceiling available and would not request in an ignorant fashion.

I would say I am looking at the ability to request in favor of the player themselves to an extreme degree, bordering on the appearance of dictating terms. I am not ready to let go of the term dictating just yet, I am sure you may convince me otherwise.

If players A, B and C walk into a sponsor and demand X,Y and Z, I only see one player having their demands met. Add that the demands heavily favor the player, create an immediate large financial loss for the sponsor and are uncharted territory in the sport.

Maybe there is an argument that a player with PMcBeth's leverage could dictate terms with smaller companies? What do you think Cgkdisc?

 

[Chains Bailey]

No top player in any sport can dictate, just simply request. Some can request and get more than others. The economics of the sport and the companies supporting it determine the maximum request that can be granted without over-reaching and risking financial failure.

HA!

You are wrong buddy...

dictate
[dictate]
say or read aloud (words to be typed, written down, or recorded on tape)

ANY player could dictate terms - I win!

Definition number two comes to the rescue.

 

[Cgkdisc]

We agree that some players have more leverage than others. McBeth likely has more than any player currently with manufacturers whose core or major marketing plan relies on high profile players to move product. But your premise was that McBeth may have sufficient leverage to essentially force a better deal than is financially sound for the manufacturer. A firm on shakier financial ground might go for it and maybe they should include ownership shares as part of the deal so the player bears sufficient risk in making the deal work. A well managed firm should know their numbers well enough to have an idea what they can risk or afford. It's not always a specific dollar cap but more of a combination of guaranteed money along with a percentage of sales the player generates into the future.

 

[Chains Bailey]

But your premise was that McBeth may have sufficient leverage to essentially force a better deal than is financially sound for the manufacturer.

This.

I think the risk taken by Discraft does constitute "a better deal than is financially sound for the manufacturer".

I am sure they have an idea of what might happen, but I would argue they do not know for sure, therefore the leverage PMcBeth held was over the company's immediate best interests. I realize that there is short-term verse long-term interests, but I still think only one player can demand terms and have them met.

If his demands are not met, he can find another company willing to meet them - that equals leverage over a sponsor to me.

I could be wrong or looking at things in too simple of terms, but for this discussion maybe the less nuanced is best suited.


I agree that dictate is too strong of a word - I think demand may be a better fit in the context of my premise.

 

[hiflyer]

I believe the word we are looking for is "clout"
According to the Google search

2. INFORMAL
influence or power, especially in politics or business.
"I knew he carried a lot of clout"