Major Violation?

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

As someone who has run dozens of tournaments in the state of North Carolina over the years, and as someone whom I worked with last year for the 2012 Amateur & Professional World Championships in Charlotte, and whom I will serve underneath as Scoring Director at this weekend's Tim Selinske US Masters Championships in Burlington, I know Chuckster as a TD and person of the highest integrity who deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt in this situation.

I can completely sympathize with the decision to allow players to finish holes missed because of a miscommunication over when lunch ended and when the 2nd round would begin. Imo, the only egregious violations here would be if the players were indeed originally told to assign par +3 to the player's score (and not par +4, as per the rules) and if the player was allowed to finish these holes solo, and without an observer. These "facts" have yet to be proven and so again, I'd like to see folks give Chuckster the benefit of the doubt until the situation is resolved in full.

just my $.02

dude missed 4 holes. not two. and replayed them all.

 

[wake911]

This is turning into a "bash PDGA TD's" so I will offer up an alternate. Adam ran the Severin Lang tourney this weekend, and ran it to a T. On time starts, on time players meeting, fast awards ceremony and payouts. All scorecards were rechecked by his team before entering on the main scoreboard, and a few were incorrect and +2 was added to the score. Very well run.

Don't let one bad experience ruin your PDGA tournament journey. MOST are run by the books, to a T. As they should be.

Also, how do folks not know the big rules who play tourneys? All the misinformation of "par +3, double par +1" as the penalty for missed holes. it is par +4. Very Straightforward. And no replays under any instances, you wait the 30 seconds they would have for their throw, and then they are penalized.

A replay post round would be ridiculous, and I would play the holes again also, if they let one they'd have to let everyone right? I mean, conditions could be different (wind/rain/heat/cold) the pressure of throwing after a great throw, or after a really bad throw affects your throws. Would I get to choose my best score on each hole? What if he had gotten an 8 on one of those holes? Would his incorrect 6 (should have been 7) have counted, or his 8?

 

[_MTL_]

As usual, we are only getting 1 side of the story.

I spoke with Chuck and he says he in no way said 6s. He clearly remembers stating par plus 4. Even if he did say 6, players are always responsible for knowing the rules. Why did someone not say "um, chuck it should be par plus 4 I think?"

I agree with his decision when I heard about what happened. He made a clerical error, which he has publicly admitted to, and made a decision that I completely agree with. Chuck knows the rules, enforces the rules and doesn't let things slide. With the error that he made, I agree that the player should have been allowed to make up the holes that were missed due to the error.

The player was informed to play these holes with the group by Chuck. The player chose not to follow these rules. And most importantly, the players involved chose not to bring the issue up to the TD about the player making holes up by himself.

Chuck and other TD's only have one set of eyes. When players are breaking the rules, the TD can only handle what he sees and what he hears about. How come Chuck was informed of this issue Today from an online forum? Why was this not brought forward at the event?

As the State Coordinator, I firmly stand behind Chuck's decision in this process and the way he handled a clerical error. I applaud him for posting and admitting to this error. I've played many of Chucks events and have never heard the first complaint about anything he has done until now. When you realize he runs 30 a year, that is saying something. I certainlt don't have that track record with a lot less events ran.

All in all, the TD made an error, but so did the players. You have to communicate issues with a TD at the event. Coming on afterward and complaining when nothing was brought forward not only doesn't handle the issue properly, it's just pointless.

 

[DavidSauls]

Sorry, but the TD cannot make a rules call like this after the round started.

Maybe the PDGA should set some better standards for TDs so that inexperienced members don't get themselves in a bind like this.

"Only in a case where a replay is the most fair solution, at the discretion of the Director, shall a hole or holes be replayed."


If the TD told someone the wrong time for the start of Round 2, I think this rule would give him leeway to allow the player to replay holes. What could be fairer than not punishing someone for the TD's mistake?

I'm not clear what exactly Chuck means by the error on the lunch times, but there's no amount of experience that could prevent a TD from making any mistakes, and remedying them in the fairest way possible seems reasonable.

The jump from replaying 2 holes to 6 holes is another issue, as is playing solo or with one accompanying player.

 

[prerube]

My only confusion was that I thought the TD gave permission for him to make up 2 holes not 4.
How was the number of holes determined? Was he late even by the time Chuckster told him to be there?

 

[the_lung]

I spoke with Chuck and he says he in no way said 6s. He clearly remembers stating par plus 4. Even if he did say 6, players are always responsible for knowing the rules. Why did someone not say "um, chuck it should be par plus 4 I think?"
.
.
.
The player was informed to play these holes with the group by Chuck. The player chose not to follow these rules. And most importantly, the players involved chose not to bring the issue up to the TD about the player making holes up by himself.

There ya go - the truth comes out.

Chuck has been completely vindicated, in my opinion.

 

[_MTL_]

"Only in a case where a replay is the most fair solution, at the discretion of the Director, shall a hole or holes be replayed."


If the TD told someone the wrong time for the start of Round 2, I think this rule would give him leeway to allow the player to replay holes. What could be fairer than not punishing someone for the TD's mistake?

I'm not clear what exactly Chuck means by the error on the lunch times, but there's no amount of experience that could prevent a TD from making any mistakes, and remedying them in the fairest way possible seems reasonable.

The jump from replaying 2 holes to 6 holes is another issue, as is playing solo or with one accompanying player.

chuck posted a 45 min lunch time, but due to an error, only provided 35 min. The player was confused by this.

The player was only allowed to replay 2 holes. When Chuck received the score card from the group, no one said anything about the player playing by himself or that he made up more than 2 holes.

Once again, there is only so much a TD can control if players don't mention anything to him.

 

[1978]

All this talk about lunch is making me hungry!

 

[SteezeOG]

This is either an attempt at comedy or the words of a sociopath.

Must be the latter because I find nothing funny about pooping on a car. Well, through the sun roof yeah that's got to be a good smile waiting to happen. You say sociopath I say guy looking for justice. Anyone who can say they never secretly wanted to crap on some jerk's car is lying to themselves or not creative enough to think of these things. opcorn:

 

[_MTL_]

All this talk about lunch is making me hungry!

take as much time as you need!

 

[prerube]

chuck posted a 45 min lunch time, but due to an error, only provided 35 min. The player was confused by this.

The player was only allowed to replay 2 holes. When Chuck received the score card from the group, no one said anything about the player playing by himself or that he made up more than 2 holes.

Once again, there is only so much a TD can control if players don't mention anything to him.

I guess this is where I was confused. so he was never made aware that the player replayed 4 until reading it on the internet.

 

[_MTL_]

I guess this is where I was confused. so he was never made aware that the player replayed 4 until reading it on the internet.

worse. he was never made aware of the player playing all 4 by himself until hearing about it from a phone call from a player who read it on the internet 2 days after it happened.

No way that there could be anything left out / changed when that happens :\

 

[Agricolae]

Chuck provides us with many opportunities to play sanctioned events each year. Every one that I've attended has been well run and well organized. Chuck has A LOT of experience as a TD, knows, and is known by nearly everyone in this part of the world. Based on reputation he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

 

[the_lung]

Chuck provides us with many opportunities to play sanctioned events each year. Every one that I've attended has been well run and well organized. Chuck has A LOT of experience as a TD, knows, and is known by nearly everyone in this part of the world. Based on reputation he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Agreed 100%! :thmbup:

 

[Soups]

chuck posted a 45 min lunch time, but due to an error, only provided 35 min. The player was confused by this.

On a side note, in each of the tournaments I've played, people have said that everyone gets an hour for lunch, which commences after the last group have come in. Is this another one of these made up conventions in my area?

 

[_MTL_]

On a side note, in each of the tournaments I've played, people have said that everyone gets an hour for lunch, which commences after the last group have come in. Is this another one of these made up conventions in my area?

An hour is the standard, but there is nothing that states it has to be that time or more or less. It's just the unwritten rule.

Chuck has some events that are not near anywhere to eat. So he publishes that these events are either gonna have food on site or people need to bring stuff. In those situations with no one traveling, an hour isn't needed.

 

[Discette]

Here is the official form to provide feedback to the PDGA about an event:



PDGA Event Evaluation Form

Either that or you can simply email Andrew Sweeton, the PDGA Tour Manager here:

asweetonATpdgaDOTcom

 

[topdog]

The problem I have is the the OP keeps saying it was no big deal to him. He also didnt enforce the rules by going up to the TD after the round because it was no big deal. But when he gets home it becomes a big deal to put blame on the TD on DGCR.

 

[topdog]

On a side note, in each of the tournaments I've played, people have said that everyone gets an hour for lunch, which commences after the last group have come in. Is this another one of these made up conventions in my area?

I have played three tournament this year where we had a 2 hour lunch.

 

[gcanter2376]

The problem I have is the the OP keeps saying it was no big deal to him. He also didnt enforce the rules by going up to the TD after the round because it was no big deal. But when he gets home it becomes a big deal to put blame on the TD on DGCR.

Wrong. Look at my posts. I did not name the td, tournament, course or anything of the such. I was talking about something that happened to me. I never had any intention of bashing anybody. Read my posts.