Martial arts horse stance?

[PerpetualNewbie]

Ok, for you sports scientists and form analysis masters amongst us, do you feel that the martial arts horse stance is a good approximation to what your form should look like when you start your pull?

I went through another frustrating timing/balance/form battle recently, and while trying to correct my falling-forward/balance issue, something in my head clicked back to about 20 years ago when I was involved in martial arts, and the horse stance came to mind.

Concentrating on dropping into an approximation of a horse stance as the final step of my run-up has given me a repeatable fix for the problems I was having and gotten my distances back up to where they were.

Not sure if this will help anyone else, but if you've had some martial arts experience, especially karate or TKD, then this tip might help you like it did me...

 

[Mbagnola1]

Pictures of stance?

 

[jeverett]

Ok, for you sports scientists and form analysis masters amongst us, do you feel that the martial arts horse stance is a good approximation to what your form should look like when you start your pull?

I went through another frustrating timing/balance/form battle recently, and while trying to correct my falling-forward/balance issue, something in my head clicked back to about 20 years ago when I was involved in martial arts, and the horse stance came to mind.

Concentrating on dropping into an approximation of a horse stance as the final step of my run-up has given me a repeatable fix for the problems I was having and gotten my distances back up to where they were.

Not sure if this will help anyone else, but if you've had some martial arts experience, especially karate or TKD, then this tip might help you like it did me...

It's not really a horse stance at all, no. Weight transfer (from back to front) is very important, and horse stance has weight centered between the feet.

From horse stance, imagine reaching your throwing arm directly away from the direction you will be throwing, and pivoting the shoulders until they are perpendicular to the direction you will be throwing. Let the feet pivot too, but don't move them. This should put you in something much closer to a front stance than a horse stance.

The throwing motion, then, transfers your weight back to horse stance and then front stance the other direction (toward the target), pivoting your body and throwing arm. Does that help at all?

Edit: if it helps, the closest martial arts approximation I've found is to think about it like a hammer fist strike.

 

[PerpetualNewbie]

It's not really a horse stance at all, no. Weight transfer (from back to front) is very important, and horse stance has weight centered between the feet.

From horse stance, imagine reaching your throwing arm directly away from the direction you will be throwing, and pivoting the shoulders until they are perpendicular to the direction you will be throwing. Let the feet pivot too, but don't move them. This should put you in something much closer to a front stance than a horse stance.

The throwing motion, then, transfers your weight back to horse stance and then front stance the other direction (toward the target), pivoting your body and throwing arm. Does that help at all?

Edit: if it helps, the closest martial arts approximation I've found is to think about it like a hammer fist strike.

ok, I follow what you're saying and the SEQUENCE and throwing motion definitely have elements of the the front stance and hammer fist like you describe, but I still maintain that there is that moment when throwing backhand where the leading foot of your heel slams into the ground that for me closely resembles the horse stance, at least for my lower body... the upper body is of course reaching back but a lot of kata I did had various upper body moves and turns while the lower body remained braced in horse...

I waited a few days before posting this to make sure it was a repeatable technique / correction for me, and it definitely is. By mentally focusing on "hitting" this stance I'm maintaining balance and avoiding falling forward during my throw and am instead pivoting from the legs and hips and driving through as one should. I'm back to consistently hitting 375-400' controlled distance with my Escapes and Sorcerers, and pushing out a little bit further for max d but with less accuracy... not pro distance by any stretch, but I still have other form flaws besides this to work out.

I'm actually looking at what you wrote and thinking that combining those elements with my belief that there is some horse stance in there somewhere, I could see how the backhand drive itself could be broken down into kind of a mini "kata", which has some interesting possibilities for learning and developing good backhand form...you could even mentally substitute the disc itself as a "weapon" and treat the whole thing like kobudo! Very cool, and kind of blowing my mind a bit the more I think about it...paradigm shifting, for me at least...

 

[PerpetualNewbie]

Pictures of stance?

Here you go!

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't know much about martial arts, but isn't the horse stance to be kind of like the immovable object? I understand it's mainly used for building muscle. Your feet are really far apart so you can't really turn the hips or move fast in any direction.

I believe you should always maintain an athletic position. The squat and thrust was a revelation for me years ago:

 

[PerpetualNewbie]

I should add that as it relates to disc golf I'm thinking more of a modified horse stance, probably not as wide as a lot of the photos you'll see and knees not bent as much, but still with your weight very centered and very much "grounded" in place.. With sufficient leg, back and core strength you should feel almost perfectly balanced top to bottom, side to side and front to back... I spent way too many hours in this stance when I was younger, thanks to what I thought at the time were masochistic instructors, lol...

 

[PerpetualNewbie]

I don't know much about martial arts, but isn't the horse stance to be kind of like the immovable object? I understand it's mainly used for building muscle.

By itself, yes, it's used to strengthen your legs, back and core... but a lot of kata (sequences of techniques strung together) flow through various stances, including the horse stance, sometimes for just fractions of a second, just like the various positions in a disc golf runup and drive...

When learning these kata as a beginner you often learn position 1, then position 2, then position 3, etc. and then you execute them in that order, rather slowly and statically at first. As you develop more skill and speed in the individual techniques, there is often a "blurring" of the individual techniques as they flow together in the kata... the same kata performed by a low ranking student can look much different than a high ranking student performing the same kata, even though technically they are the same...

If you look at the guys who post multiple videos over time in their form critique threads you can often see a similar progression there...

Your feet are really far apart so you can't really turn the hips or move fast in any direction.

No, you can generate a /lot/ of speed and power from this stance, and it's all hips, leg and core power coming together...just like we want in disc golf.

I believe you should always maintain an athletic position. The squat and thrust was a revelation for me years ago:

Oh I agree about the athletic position, but it's being able to attain that consistently and intentionally that has eluded me...I'll just "lose it" sometimes and I've struggled to find an approach or formula for diagnosing and correcting the problem.

If you pause the video you posted at exactly the one minute mark, look at how his knees are bent and he is perfectly balanced and centered over the ball, with his butt down and back a little bit...he even talks about "squatting"... in my mind this shares a lot of elements of the horse stance, and I think it's even more relevant for disc golfers who often end in somewhat wider stances than ball golfers do because of our run-up.

I know you post a lot of videos of ball golf (a sport I've never played) and I've tried watching them, but have had trouble making both the physical and mental connection to them when trying to translate to disc golf... maybe this martial arts analogies is so appealing and is working for me because it matches up more closely with my background?

 

[sidewinder22]

IDK, I associate horse stance with spent leverage in a throw albeit their knees are often straight. The feet are too far apart to really use the hips and get your weight forward for a throw.

Squat is different than horse stance to me because your feet aren't or shouldn't be wide apart when squatting weight. You want everything to be stacked in your posture with feet shoulder width apart.

This is bad horse stance, wide flat footed stance and straight knees:

Should have some squeeze between the knees, like digging your knees into the horse to hold on.

 

[jeverett]

ok, I follow what you're saying and the SEQUENCE and throwing motion definitely have elements of the the front stance and hammer fist like you describe, but I still maintain that there is that moment when throwing backhand where the leading foot of your heel slams into the ground that for me closely resembles the horse stance, at least for my lower body... the upper body is of course reaching back but a lot of kata I did had various upper body moves and turns while the lower body remained braced in horse...

I'm actually looking at what you wrote and thinking that combining those elements with my belief that there is some horse stance in there somewhere, I could see how the backhand drive itself could be broken down into kind of a mini "kata", which has some interesting possibilities for learning and developing good backhand form...you could even mentally substitute the disc itself as a "weapon" and treat the whole thing like kobudo! Very cool, and kind of blowing my mind a bit the more I think about it...paradigm shifting, for me at least...

Hmm.. the "leading foot of your heel" really shouldn't ever "slam into the ground" though. That's indicating your weight is already centered over your body, where it should really be on your back foot mostly still. Ideally, you don't want all of the weight to transfer from your back leg before your pull-through and shoulder pivot.

I don't know if you have any background in arts like Aikido or Hapkido, but one thing I like to think about is how the snap of the disc compares to the various 'throwing' techniques. e.g. things like how at the moment of the hit/throw you want your uke (partner) to be moving quickly, while you suddenly stop moving (forward). e.g. Disc moves forward while you move forward, suddenly you stop moving forward (rotational motion suddenly pulls sideways) and the disc has no choice but to rip/snap out of your hand (conservation of momentum).

Help at all? For the record, your distance is about what I can get too, although I have other flaws in my form as well.

 

[PerpetualNewbie]

IDK, I associate horse stance with spent leverage in a throw albeit their knees are often straight.

Then that isn't a horse stance

Squat is different than horse stance to me because your feet aren't or shouldn't be wide apart when squatting weight. You want everything to be stacked in your posture with feet shoulder width apart.

Sure, I've done some weightlifting previously (Stronglifts 5x5, etc) and for the squat you absolutely want the position you mention to generate maximum upward power, but that's not exactly the same as what we want for disc golf is it?

To clarify, I'm not stating that one should lock in and stay in the "modified horse stance" for an extended period of time, but like in the kata I described above it's more of a pass-through state...for me it's almost like a "checkpoint" to get to and helps keep my legs bent, my butt down and my balance centered.

This thread may be useless to anyone who hasn't practiced martial arts for any appreciable amount of time but I thought the success I had correlating this in my own game might prove useful to others with a similar background. (I haven't practiced in years myself but was quite involved for a long time in my younger days). Heck, it may even be useless to others with experience, I guess if nothing else I at least started a discussion I hadn't seen before.

This is bad horse stance, wide flat footed stance and straight knees:

Should have some squeeze between the knees, like digging your knees into the horse to hold on.

Again, not a horse stance

 

[PerpetualNewbie]

Hmm.. the "leading foot of your heel" really

Err, I meant to write "heel of the leading foot" there...ugh...

shouldn't ever "slam into the ground" though. That's indicating your weight is already centered over your body, where it should really be on your back foot mostly still. Ideally, you don't want all of the weight to transfer from your back leg before your pull-through and shoulder pivot.

Not sure exactly what point you're discussing here because all i said was there was a point in my form on a good throw where the heel slams into the ground and I feel like I'm in something resembling a modified horse stance for a brief moment... if the "slams into the ground" seems overly strong then simply substitute "heel touches the ground"...

I don't know if you have any background in arts like Aikido

Tried Aikido for a bit but got turned off of it pretty quick... even the upper-level students and the instructors couldn't effectively counter even moderate-speed straight-line strikes which made it impractical to me... seemed more like dancing than martial arts.

or Hapkido, but one thing I like to think about is how the snap of the disc compares to the various 'throwing' techniques. e.g. things like how at the moment of the hit/throw you want your uke (partner) to be moving quickly, while you suddenly stop moving (forward). e.g. Disc moves forward while you move forward, suddenly you stop moving forward (rotational motion suddenly pulls sideways) and the disc has no choice but to rip/snap out of your hand (conservation of momentum).

Help at all? For the record, your distance is about what I can get too, although I have other flaws in my form as well.

Conceptually I get what you're saying but for me personally it's not a real strong or personal analogy...thanks for the input though, sounds like you have a background in MA so I really appreciate your input here!

 

[jeverett]

Not sure exactly what point you're discussing here because all i said was there was a point in my form on a good throw where the heel slams into the ground and I feel like I'm in something resembling a modified horse stance for a brief moment... if the "slams into the ground" seems overly strong then simply substitute "heel touches the ground"...

Tried Aikido for a bit but got turned off of it pretty quick... even the upper-level students and the instructors couldn't effectively counter even moderate-speed straight-line strikes which made it impractical to me... seemed more like dancing than martial arts.

Conceptually I get what you're saying but for me personally it's not a real strong or personal analogy...thanks for the input though, sounds like you have a background in MA so I really appreciate your input here!

Oh ok. When you mentioned the heel 'slamming', I was picturing something like the mountain stances in many of the (performance) Chinese martial arts, where you really do slam your foot down as you drop into the stance.

Truthfully, I didn't like Aikido either, for very similar reasons. It's an excellent art for exploring energy and (body) motion, but not all at a practical, efficient self-defense art. For me, that's where Hapkido came in. It takes a lot of the same ideas, but utilizes them in a much more practical manner for real-world self-defense.

Like you, I'm a fair few years out of training now, but I formerly trained in Taekwondo, Karate, and Hapkido (as well as dabbling in fencing and stage combat training).

 

[sidewinder22]

Then that isn't a horse stance

Again, not a horse stance

What defines a horse stance? You could ride a horse that way.