McBeth vs. Climo

[Ryan C]

If this year is any indication of the future there's no way anyone can say McBeth's career is better than Climo's.

I don't even know how to interpret that. A joke?

If by better career you mean more wins or world championships, it is possible McBeth will never catch up. If you mean who is a more talented player, I'd take McBeth every single time, even if Climo had all the modern discs in his physical prime. People seem to act like Climo never had bad tournaments.... I would argue that McBeth hasn't even had a bad tournament this year, just a couple of bad rounds that cost him the win. At this level of competition one mediocre round is going to cost you the event almost every single time.

 

[pearlybakerbest]

I don't even know how to interpret that. A joke?

If by better career you mean more wins or world championships, it is possible McBeth will never catch up. If you mean who is a more talented player, I'd take McBeth every single time, even if Climo had all the modern discs in his physical prime. People seem to act like Climo never had bad tournaments.... I would argue that McBeth hasn't even had a bad tournament this year, just a couple of bad rounds that cost him the win. At this level of competition one mediocre round is going to cost you the event almost every single time.

Climo went ten years straight with only one tourney finish out of the top 5, with the vast majority those years being Wins. Oh, and that one finish out of the top five was 6th place.

 

[Jay Dub]

Climo went ten years straight with only one tourney finish out of the top 5, with the vast majority those years being Wins. Oh, and that one finish out of the top five was 6th place.

And there was talk this weekend that McBeth's finish would knock him out of the top 5 in rankings on the DGPT. I just checked and the rankings are being updated.

 

[Ryan C]

And there was talk this weekend that McBeth's finish would knock him out of the top 5 in rankings on the DGPT. I just checked and the rankings are being updated.

And if I was racing against a bunch of 8 year olds I would be the best sprinter. Its just not the same game anymore. There are like 5 players today objectively better at disc golf than Climo ever was.

 

[Jay Dub]

And if I was racing against a bunch of 8 year olds I would be the best sprinter. Its just not the same game anymore. There are like 5 players today objectively better at disc golf than Climo ever was.

How do you know that?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Climo's ears provide more glide.

 

[swhite]

I think that Paul McBeth is a great competitor, but I am not sure that he is an innovator of the game.

When I see his driving form, I see elements of the mechanics that other players had already been using and perfecting before he came along. And, it may be that all his skills have been learned from others before him.

Look at Avery Jenkin's forehand throw, and then watch McBeth throw forehand. McBeth may be good at this skill, but he was not the innovator that began it.

What would McBeth's skill set look like if he had lived back in Ken Climo's day? Suppose McBeth was going for world championship #6 like Ken Climo was in 1995? DX Teebirds had not been invented yet, never mind many of the techniques used by top players now. So, I think that his game would look very different. It could be that his style would resemble, say, Joe Mela or Crazy John Brooks.

tldr: Comparing Paul McBeth with Ken Climo based on their comparable skill sets is comparing apples to oranges.

 

[samxyx]

Compare players with regard to the era they played in.

As the title says, it's not fair to compare Climo to the new age players. Disc golf in the last 10 years has grown dramatically. 12 world championships in his 20 years on tour, among all his other victories speaks for themselves. He was dominant.

If you put prime McBeth against prime Climo, prime McBeth might win out. So might prime Wysocki or a bunch of other of the new age players. That's how much Disc Golf has grown. That still doesn't diminish how dominant Climo was during his career. McBeth might catch him one day, and I'm not saying he has to win 12 worlds to do it, but in terms of much better one was than their competition, Climo takes the cake.

 

[nrihan]

but in terms of much better one was than their competition, Climo takes the cake.

True. But I go back and watch old DGLO and other older tournaments.....and all I can say is that I believe today's field is way tougher and much deeper than what Climo played against.

 

[dreadlock86]

most people seem to think that is an argument for McBeth but it's really an argument for Climo.

it means that to be as dominant as Climo was, a modern player has to be head and nearly shoulders above the rest of the field. nobody can claim that. it doesn't matter that the game has evolved. along the way, everyone had access to the same technology and technique of the time.

the question isn't could prime McBeth beat prime Climo. it's can McBeth's career rival Climo's and can he demonstrate the same level of dominance over the field. IMO, that is what makes one the GOAT. if McBeth can pull another 4 straight, then we can start having a real conversation.

name a metric (MPO only):
Worlds: 12 v 5
USDGC: 5 v 2
total majors: 21 v 15
total wins: 223 v 128
win %: 51 v 38

 

[Ryan P.]

If you compare them vs. their competition, they are both the best by a good margin. It's difficult to measure that, but neither one has an equal in their day and age. The only question is whether Paul can stave off the younger generation as they are coming onto the scene like Ken did until he was 35 or so.

If you compare them with world titles, then I'm not quite sure how to adjust. If Paul gets to 12, that'd be a greater feat than Climo's 12 due to the competition. I'd say if Paul gets to 8 or 9 then that'd be equivalent to Climo's 12, but that's just my opinion.

As for Paul not being able to play with slower discs, I disagree, and I have quite a few ideas to back that up. I've seen Paul throw a putter 440. He throws Buzzzs, Zones, and Lunas more than anything else. He can throw BH rollers with slower discs just as well as Climo could. He's even been a proponent of decreasing the rim width limit (to 1.8cm, which is speed 9). All of this on top of the fact that he's also honed in a world-class forehand. So to anyone who wants to ask the questions of, "Could Paul be as good with the limited disc selection/technology back then?" and leave the answer hanging as if he couldn't, I'd reconsider.

Could Climo learn to throw a FH with the newer discs that allow for it? Sadly we can't say for sure, but the educated guess would say that he could. Dude could throw any line that people commonly threw back in the day. Heck, even if he couldn't learn a serviceable FH, his floor would be James Conrad (please don't start a Climo vs. Conrad thread).

Someone was talking about Paul not executing the shots 100% of the time like Stokely said Climo could. You're right, he couldn't. However, Stokely commonly exaggerates (that's how he talks, I don't think it's a bad thing), and I guarantee you Climo wasn't even close to 100%. Maybe that day where he rattled off 23 straight birdies he was.

Here's where I'm going: they are both amazing to watch because they both have a drive to work hard enough to be the best, and the killer instinct to make it happen on the course. They both made sure they were the best prepared player heading into the weekend, and then each of them had a different mental edge, but they both had the mental edge on their opponents. From what I've seen, Climo just acted like he was the best, sort of like Tiger does, where everyone knows he's the best and he uses that to his advantage. Wish I could have seen it. McBeth is stoic, making the right decisions and then executing on those decisions. If he needs to take a risk to win, he will; Idlewild is a perfect example of him taking huge risks on the last few holes and it not working out; Maple Hill last year (hole 17 putt) is an example of a risk that did work out.

Arguing "who is better" is fun, but let's make sure to sit back and enjoy the ride. I love watching McBeth play ten tourneys a year because I know that, if he's in the mix then it'll be a good finish. I wish I could have watched Climo play more, and it's great when people upload vids of the old days. If only we could see King Kong vs. T-rex instead of debating it.

 

[dreadlock86]

**edit**

made a mistake on Climo's open win percentage. it's 48.7%

 

[Ryan C]

most people seem to think that is an argument for McBeth but it's really an argument for Climo.

it means that to be as dominant as Climo was, a modern player has to be head and nearly shoulders above the rest of the field. nobody can claim that. it doesn't matter that the game has evolved. along the way, everyone had access to the same technology and technique of the time.

the question isn't could prime McBeth beat prime Climo. it's can McBeth's career rival Climo's and can he demonstrate the same level of dominance over the field. IMO, that is what makes one the GOAT. if McBeth can pull another 4 straight, then we can start having a real conversation.

name a metric (MPO only):
Worlds: 12 v 5
USDGC: 5 v 2
total majors: 21 v 15
total wins: 223 v 128
win %: 51 v 38

This makes no sense as a metric. It was relatively easy for Climo to be head and shoulders above his much weaker competition. Go back and watch some really early video of USDGC. The vast majority of those players look like my local advanced tournaments in terms of throwing consistency and putting. Climos legacy is that he was sort of the first serious player and there is a boatload of nostalgia that older players have for his era. Not that he wasn't a tremendous competitor and very good even by today's standard, but that's really all I can say.

I can absolutely agree that the extremely talented field of players that exists today may never have come to be if it weren't for Climo setting the example of what a serious disc golfer could look like. He definitely pushed everyone to become better. In other words, McBeth probably wouldn't be McBeth had Climo not been Climo.

But that doesn't mean that McBeth isn't a better golfer. If everything else was the same, except McBeth never won a single worlds, it would still be clear to me he would win 9 times out of 10 over the course of a 4 round tournament. If your only definition of GOAT is that they have more championships or a higher win percentage, then that is a GOAT I don't really care about, cause I just want to know who was more skilled. You can call Climo the GOAT, and I'll call that a totally irrelevant honor.

 

[Jay Dub]

I find it funny the people who weren't around when Climo played claiming how weak the competition was. Climo was not the 1st serious disc golfer.

 

[Ryan C]

I find it funny the people who weren't around when Climo played claiming how weak the competition was. Climo was not the 1st serious disc golfer.

While I wish I was 20 years old, I am not. I watched Climo play in person on several occasions while he was still in his early 30's playing Open. I'd like to know who before Climo took disc golf as seriously as a job. No one really legitimized it as a career. I don't mean to imply that no one took it seriously.

 

[Jay Dub]

While I wish I was 20 years old, I am not. I watched Climo play in person on several occasions while he was still in his early 30's playing Open. I'd like to know who before Climo took disc golf as seriously as a job. No one really legitimized it as a career. I don't mean to imply that no one took it seriously.

The money wasn't there for anyone to do it as a job before Climo, even Climo had an off season full time job. There were many good players. Sam Ferrans won the US Open at 16. Steve Wisecup won the last Worlds before Climo to name a couple. Greenwell had game and many others.

 

[Ryan C]

The money wasn't there for anyone to do it as a job before Climo, even Climo had an off season full time job. There were many good players. Sam Ferrans won the US Open at 16. Steve Wisecup won the last Worlds before Climo to name a couple. Greenwell had game and many others.

Okay man, I respect that you have a different opinion. I don't think anyone is being convinced enough to change their mind. When people talk about the GOAT they are obviously not all talking about the same thing. Climo was the most dominant compared to his contemporaries and the most influential, while I think Paul is better in the sense he would shoot lower scores more often. To each his own.

 

[sidewinder22]

46 yr old Climo was tied for the lead at 2015 USDGC with a 25 yr old McBeth and 22 yr old Wysocki.

 

[Ryan C]

46 yr old Climo was tied for the lead at 2015 USDGC with a 25 yr old McBeth and 22 yr old Wysocki.

That's true, but to be fair that was only after round 1. He went on to lose by 19 strokes. Both of them played to about their rating on average during that tournament, and that was the final result. Granted, this was well past Climo's prime.

 

[sidewinder22]

That's true, but to be fair that was only after round 1. He went on to lose by 19 strokes. Both of them played to about their rating on average during that tournament, and that was the final result. Granted, this was well past Climo's prime.

Lost half of those strokes on one hole - 888.