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I think there's some relatively unknown courses in Finland that would rival those courses. This is based purely on pics and video.
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Movement in top 10
- Thread starter Mando
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Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
I'm hoping the reinvigoration at Highbridge will bring one, three or even five courses back into the top 20 in the next few years. Still much fine-tuning work ahead along with improved infrastructure. But Mountain Man and crew have gotten most of the playability and baskets back this year. More course rerouting, many tee pads and better signage in the works next year.
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we don't have to wonder. there are multiple tourney vids of Jarva that attest to it being at least worthy of the conversation. and as SW22 said, i'm sure there are plenty of unknown courses across Scandinavia that rival our top 20.
personally, i can imagine it being a European BRP. i haven't played BRP but from video coverage i think i agree with it's detractors (as in, great course but not a top 10, too much filler).
i don't really care about the drive-by reviews. like always, time and more reviews will correct the numbers, assuming the course survives. and for me, the course's future is a far more worthy topic of conversation than whether it belongs in the top 10 or the #1 spot. when that flurry of reviews came, i appreciated that they brought attention to the course and ammo for its defenders. i still think it's a good thing. if wrongly being in the #1 spot saves the course from extinction, that's a worthy trade.
so... what's the status of the course??
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it is a lengthy course. not as tough a walk as creekside but he basically used the same review for both courses.
side note, one doesn't have to love Selah. maybe it's not your style course. but i do think it's funny when you can tell that certain reviewers didn't want to spend the money for a cart and then they clearly didn't enjoy their time walking both courses in one day, trying to minimize costs.
for sure. it's crazy that a 4.5 review praising the course can end up making people mad at you for bringing down their personal fav. and crazier still that an arbitrary list on the internet provokes such reactions.
I agree with basically all of this from dreadlock and SW22. But it's impossible to miss the rating inflation that happened from 25 May to 13 June in 2018. There were thirteen 5 disc reviews written in that period, with each of those thirteen reviewers having written exactly one DGCR review for one DGCR course: Jarva. Eleven of those reviews were between 5/25 and 5/28. And those 13 reviews make up well over half of Jarva's 23 reviews. The cynic in me doubts that these 13 people were all unique reviewers, but I prefer to think that it's just some of Finland's dedicated disc golf community that finally had a good reason to contribute to DGCR in an effort to help out their favorite course. (Incidentally, it also makes me curious what happened in mid to late May 2018 that brought all this about.) Fortunately, some of those reviews do have useful information, even though they are not as detailed as we generally like to see for a helpful 5-disc review.
Another factor, of course, is that Jarva is a "Seasonal" course. That's obviously different than "Temporary" such as Winthrop Gold, but Jarva is certainly the only Seasonal course in the top 10. My impression was that it was always in its best shape for the glorious tournaments we've seen on SpinTV, but that it missed many of those holes for the rest of the year, also being completely closed for other parts (maybe just winter? which would be understandable in Finland).
As far as quality courses overseas, I think this does highlight the fact that DGCR remains predominantly a resource on courses in the USA. There's simply not the user base overseas to keep courses and reviews updated. We all know there are large numbers of courses and disc golfers in Finland, for example, but only a small percentage of the disc golfers are on DGCR, with still fewer contributing to the courses and/or reviews. Someone mentioned previously that maybe DGCR's top 10 should only include courses in the USA, and I think it's fair to say that Jarva is the first course to really raise that question.
This is a fun discussion. But, does anyone really care about these rankings? Maybe a lot of folks do? I don't really know.
I don't have any personal attachment to the rankings, but I find it odd that Milo (or Whistlers Bend ftm) isn't in the ranking, when it seems to me to stand clearly above Selah Creekside. HB and Lakeside seem well-placed, and if I ever get across the pond for a dg vacation it's Finland fer sure.
I played Lakeside in the evening, and Creekside and Lakeside the next morning. I thought the walks were great---but I've played 4 rounds in a day at Horning's too: Canyon, Meadows, Highlands, Canyon. Ok,ok---I carried a small bag the last two rounds.
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early this year I had plans to go to Sweden to play Jarva and other Swedish courses, but covid obviously ruined that, along with just about everyone else's travel plans.
My friend, dgcr member cumurph, played Jarva last summer along with several other courses in the Stockholm area. he said it was a great course, but not his favorite as the terrain was not epic enough for him. he also noted that my backyard course was better than Jarva. Sure it could have been just a nice gesture from him, but i ordered my "#1 course in the world" banner anyways.
My friend, dgcr member cumurph, played Jarva last summer along with several other courses in the Stockholm area. he said it was a great course, but not his favorite as the terrain was not epic enough for him. he also noted that my backyard course was better than Jarva. Sure it could have been just a nice gesture from him, but i ordered my "#1 course in the world" banner anyways.
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around that time was when the final decision was being debated by the city to close the course so that they could turn the park into a cemetery. clubs there were trying to make a case for the course so a bunch of Swedes wrote reviews attempting to show the course's popularity. i wonder what might have happened if there had been 10 reviews like mrclc's, proving Americans traveled there just to play the course.
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I laughed when I noticed my "4.5 Phenomenal" review of Lakeside knocked it down from the top spot. Perhaps some other courses deserve their time at the top, too. Obviously, Jarva could use some recognition and help. These "tops of lists" are just pissing contests anyway. Any course in the top 10/20/etc. is already in rarified territory and the distinctions between them now is but a slight variance. I imagine most people don't have enough familiarity with all the truly best courses to properly evaluate them. I know I've played some phenomenal courses out of the 200+ I've encountered, but I don't think I've played the best of the best yet from pics and vids I've seen of other courses around the country.
Thanks for the feedback on my list of Cons. I always rent the golf cart at Selah, by the way, but I also know it's a long haul to walk it at length. Since I found so little to complain about with either course, I may have nitpicked a bit.
Thanks for the feedback on my list of Cons. I always rent the golf cart at Selah, by the way, but I also know it's a long haul to walk it at length. Since I found so little to complain about with either course, I may have nitpicked a bit.
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I think the top 10 matters a lot; it is one of the first things you see when you go to www.dgcoursereview.com. not sure how many eyeballs see those, but advertisers pay top dollar to get views & these courses are getting it for free. i would really like to see the top 10 change more; there are so many good courses; any of the top 100 deserve to get noticed the way the top 10 do.
i like the idea of tr reviews having more weight.
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No thanks. I wish I could get rid of a few pounds.
Jarva is a stunning course with beautiful scenery, enjoyable hole design, and the absolute, bar-none best maintenance I've ever seen. It is absolutely a 5, and is comparable to (if not necessarily objectively better than) the other courses you've mentioned, all of which I've played. If long, fair, predominantly wooded courses are the magic design cocktail for a 5-disc course, then I can see where Jarva might fall flat for some. The holes tend more toward the open and simple than the cited courses, and I wouldn't hold it up as a shining example of the absolute best in modern design. That said, the holes are highly memorable, fun to play, there's a lot to look at, the pads and baskets are great, there's a pro shop on site, there's a cafe on site. I'm more generous with my 5's than some folks on here, so I can see where it may be a 4.5 for some, but I can't imagine a rating lower than that from someone attempting to objectively review the course vs. simply inspire (incite?) contentious discussion.
I apologize for my review being a bit thin on substance -- I tried to go more poetic because I thought the course's demise was imminent (turns out that they received a stay of execution at least through this year). I would argue that yes, Jarva holds the top spot currently due to the flurry of drive-bys, and it may not necessarily be the World #1, but it is certainly deserving of its place in the conversation.
I can absolutely confirm this. Tampere isn't exactly unknown, but Jussi has created a marvel that few folks outside of Finland have played. It's a stone-cold 5.
Of the ten courses I played in Finland, only Nokia (the 12-hole standard layout, not The Beast) would fall below a 3.0 or 3.5 for me. Most were 3.5's or 4's. That's a pretty solid hit ratio. For disc golfers with the means, Finland is a relatively untapped well of disc golf delight. I highly recommend taking a trip to see how good they have it up in Scandinavia.
It's also worth mentioning that all those excellent Finnish courses were in an ~85 minute drivetime radius from Hämeenlinna (population ~70,000), which is midway between Helsinki and Tampere. I didn't have time for a number of courses that I had targeted around Helsinki because I was having too much fun playing these local routings out in the sticks.
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