Movement in top 10

[BogeyNoMore]

That being said, Ozark (when groomed) is an experience worth having for any DGer.

Which is why I was so pissed. I soooo wanted to play those courses... but the place was a freakin' jungle. I genuinely think the guy was trying to be accommodating when he told me the "grass is really long, but it's playable," but honestly, he just should have turned me away.

As a local, can you ballpark about how many times a year you think they get that place under control?

 

[odysseus81]

Which is why I was so pissed. I soooo wanted to play those courses... but the place was a freakin' jungle. I genuinely think the guy was trying to be accommodating when he told me the "grass is really long, but it's playable," but honestly, he just should have turned me away.

As a local, can you ballpark about how many times a year you think they get that place under control?

I really don't know that it is much more than when Dave Mac owned it. Back then it was basically once in the spring and once in the fall. The guy wants to monetize the property but from what I can tell, really hasn't put much into it.

 

[dreadlock86]

I tried to play the courses at Ozark the day before I played Harmony Bends.... they were completely overgrown and not playable... played 3 holes and realized it was sheer futility...

man... that really sucks.

The way I see it, they should honestly be listed as temp courses.

:thmbup:

Not to speak for dreadlock, but...

While the two of you agree about tee signs and general maintenance, I think the reason he disagrees with you is that fundamentally, the two of you seem to value amenities on completely different levels:

pretty much

I don't really understand what you are disagreeing with about my statement...I specifically said it was a great experience but when amenities factor in it can't hold a candle to the top courses. One of the things that establishes something as a top course is amenities. They are top because they generally execute most all elements of the course well. You can easily dismiss teepads and signage, but to most, those aren't even amenities...those are assumed. That isn't even getting into the amenities like benches and trashcans and restrooms on site, etc. I shouldn't have to play in a tournament to keep from getting lost on a course if it is a top course. I have played Ozark Mountain at least 5 times and it is incredibly fun and challenging...plus really well designed, but unfortunately, that will never be enough to be a top 25 course.

red highlight: i think this is fundamentally untrue in that it's not axiomatic. it could coincidentally be accurate at any given time but it's not like it must be true. at this point in DG, most of what are considered the best courses have excellent amenities. this wasn't always the case and it's possible but not likely that it could not be the case in the future. imagine a hypothetical unmarked course on some magical perfect property that has the best 18 holes ever designed in DG. it would still be the best course ever without signs or concrete tees.

also, can we agree that "no teepads" is a logical impossibility. wherever you are supposed to tee from, whatever surface that might be, it's a teepad. i have no problem with natural tees so long as they are even and safe. and from the number of pro players i see teeing off from the side of rubber pads, i'm not alone. concrete does not equal better.

I get it...but my point is, you can't casually dismiss non-existent tees and signage when you are considering the top of the top courses and I think that plays itself out when you see what courses are in the top 25. That being said, Ozark (when groomed) is an experience worth having for any DGer.

why not? there are plenty of people reviewing courses here that casually dismiss course design and public safety, two factors that are waaaay more important to a good course, imo. there are probably just as many people here whose course ratings are in direct variation with the number of trees in each fairway; the more challenging the better, whether the design is fair or not.

we are blessed that we now have courses that have it all (and imo, Houck is one of the major driving forces in that trend). but look at the top 25; how many of those courses really deserve to be there? BRP, Visionquest, Lake Clairborne, Phantom Falls, and even Flip and Idlewild... these courses are arguably more about reputation, fluff and lace, and scenic views than the best disc golf modern course design has to offer.

 

[odysseus81]

I totally get your point of view. To me, course design should always be the most important factor when rating a course, but the "experience"--which I guess I would define loosely as fun-factor--weighs in at 2nd place. Amenities play a huge role in determining the fun-factor. I enjoyed the discussion and totally respect your point of view. While certainly, it is possible that a magical course on the perfect property with little to no amenities could come around and crack the top 10, my guess is, there will always be people that care enough about the "extras" that lower reviews will come in and drive it down. I will say that of the top 10 courses I have played, I thought Flip was the least deserving on that list. That isn't to say I didn't really enjoy it, but it wasn't even my favorite Ludington area course. It really is the great thing about DG though, and the reason we take our annual road trip. Every DG course is completely unique and you never know what you are going to get. We are heading to the Pine, CO area this fall and I can't wait to try those out. Never played legit mountain courses before

 

[mrclc]

I'll be playing Harmony Bends this weekend and review #18 for the course will follow quickly behind.

Enjoy! Harmony Bends is top-tier Houck.

 

[dreadlock86]

I totally get your point of view. To me, course design should always be the most important factor when rating a course, but the "experience"--which I guess I would define loosely as fun-factor--weighs in at 2nd place. Amenities play a huge role in determining the fun-factor. I enjoyed the discussion and totally respect your point of view. While certainly, it is possible that a magical course on the perfect property with little to no amenities could come around and crack the top 10, my guess is, there will always be people that care enough about the "extras" that lower reviews will come in and drive it down. I will say that of the top 10 courses I have played, I thought Flip was the least deserving on that list. That isn't to say I didn't really enjoy it, but it wasn't even my favorite Ludington area course. It really is the great thing about DG though, and the reason we take our annual road trip. Every DG course is completely unique and you never know what you are going to get. We are heading to the Pine, CO area this fall and I can't wait to try those out. Never played legit mountain courses before

i totally get all that too. and that is certainly the perspective for a large number of players and reviewers. it's not the case for me and i can't help but think about how high the fun factor has been for me at courses that had very poor amenities but had other intangibles. a lot of the time i joined a local or a group of them and didn't have to worry about navigation or walk up blind fairways to know where the basket was. Bailey in CO is a great example (btw, you should make sure you get a chance to play there on your trip!) and a lot of other CO mountain courses now that i think of it, ghost town and golden eagle (formerly known as buckhorn). also the courses in Rochester, NY where i first started playing. before Am worlds was there a few years back the signage and tees were awful at most of those courses (much better now). Ellison Park was tons of fun, $hit tees and no signs, but navigation was mostly obvious.

a big issue is the vastly different experience a local and a traveler will have at a course. and luck plays a factor too: were there locals at the course the day you played to help you out or were you totally on your own? locals love multiple basket positions but they can be a huge pain for a traveler. ditto blind baskets.


anyway, have fun at Harmony Bends. all this nonsense is irrelevant there, that course has it all.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

a big issue is the vastly different experience a local and a traveler will have at a course. and luck plays a factor too: were there locals at the course the day you played to help you out or were you totally on your own? locals love multiple basket positions but they can be a huge pain for a traveler. ditto blind baskets.

This is so true. Many players have a hard time seeing their local courses through the eyes of a traveler. Try to recall your very first time at that course (even then, there's a decent chance you were with a friend who'd played it before):

What was it like to get around from hole to hole?
How comfortable were you throwing your tee shot to a basket you couldn't see with a brush lined fairway?

 

[dreadlock86]

highbridge gold takes a hit. someone was bitter

 

[sjberry2017]

highbridge gold takes a hit. someone was bitter

You're not wrong, but it's an interesting question; at what point does the inability of a property owner/Parks dept to maintain and clean the course begin to over-ride the golf quality of the course? Highbridge is, of course, a very unique situation in this regard, but I think it's an interesting balancing act.

Definitely a crap review though

 

[NDABRUSH]

At this point, we have heard some reviews here and there about tall grass over the last few years. The music festival and the inability to clean up afterwards has been the main downfall in the overall ratings of the HB courses. It wouldn't be as much of a problem if they would just close the courses until everything has been cleaned up. That way nobody wastes a road trip and nobody would ever see all of the litter and used condoms to begin with.

 

[DavidSauls]

You're not wrong, but it's an interesting question; at what point does the inability of a property owner/Parks dept to maintain and clean the course begin to over-ride the golf quality of the course? Highbridge is, of course, a very unique situation in this regard, but I think it's an interesting balancing act.

Definitely a crap review though

I took it into account when rating my own private course.

The problem I have with this particular Highbridge review is that it's just a moment in time---particular, a moment following a non-disc-golf event on the same property. It would be different to downgrade the course because it's often in poor condition (which would apparently be true, from things I've read). But I suspect there are lots of courses that I could visit at exactly the wrong time, and I wouldn't assume those conditions are always the case.

That, and the "1" seems to be just bashing. But at least it seems to be an honest and supported negative review. Not an "I lost my disc in the water and they wouldn't let me get it so it's a terrible course" one.

 

[DavidSauls]

At this point, we have heard some reviews here and there about tall grass over the last few years. The music festival and the inability to clean up afterwards has been the main downfall in the overall ratings of the HB courses. It wouldn't be as much of a problem if they would just close the courses until everything has been cleaned up. That way nobody wastes a road trip and nobody would ever see all of the litter and used condoms to begin with.

That's a very good point.

One of my all-time favorite courses was The Canyon in Brooksville, FL. We used to go there for a winter tournament, and I was told that the course was closed in the summer, because they couldn't maintain it during the growing season, and the combination of high grass and snakes was a problem. I don't know that firsthand, but it was my understanding.

Now I'm co-owner of a course, and early on we considered doing the same thing. As it is, we just caution people who might come about the summer conditions. I'm reluctant to turn someone away, especially a traveler from far away, who may never get another chance; for the same reason, if I found myself in Wisconsin in a random week I'd want to play Highbridge, even if it's not at its best. As long as it's not completely unplayable. I'd just want them to be honest and let me know what to expect.

But that brings us back to the question of whether you rate a course at its best, or an average of conditions during the year, or just a vague "much of the time" standard. How do you compare a course that's great sometimes/poor sometimes, to one that's great sometimes/closed sometimes? Though I think "at its worst"---as this Highbridge review seems to be---is probably not the best answer.

 

[tallpaul]

....The times.....they are a changing....

19 year old kids playing disc golf have gone electric.

*I'll let someone else expound on this if anyone gets my meaning?*

*There is also a secondary sub text going on with High Bridge if anyone has been noticing that?*

 

[tallpaul]

^^^^related to the above (and I would start by noting; if crew was so concerned about garbage and maintenance, and course conditions; how come they didn't volunteer their weekend to help fix said problems?)

....some High Bridge pics from today:

 

[tallpaul]

^^^^While I posted a picture with a disc basket on the fourth photo; I can tell you that the post I pulled this sequence from; did not show a basket (and not this one); until the seventh picture. High Bridge owner cares about these types of things; much more than disc golf itself; or rave shows (this is not in response to anything on DGCR/at least that I'm aware of; it's just a general type post from the owner):

"The beauty of nature and Highbridge Hills. To many it is a self healing property ...not just a disc golf Mecca. Milkweed for our monarch butterflies, sumac, rye grass, flowering grass such as trefoil, clovers and more. Raw blackberries and of course...spring fed water hazards that create fun for all! The " natural" healing environment for those truly seeking happiness and change!"

 

[odysseus81]

Here's my review:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=8454&mode=rev#revform

Truly a memorable experience and a course I hope everyone gets to play at some point. Harmony Bends is something special.

 

[Mocheez]

Branson Trails is a 4.80 with 10 reviews so far. MO could have two courses in the top 10 by the end of the year.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

But that brings us back to the question of whether you rate a course at its best, or an average of conditions during the year, or just a vague "much of the time" standard. How do you compare a course that's great sometimes/poor sometimes, to one that's great sometimes/closed sometimes?

This answer seems easy to me. Just rate it as it is when you play it and stop speculating about how much better it might be at other times. This is the only honest way to rate a course. Averaging is a function of many reveiws over time. If, when you played, the conditions were an aberration, then your review will be an aberration - albeit an honest one. No course "deserves" any particular rating or ranking. No designer or owner "deserves" the benefit of the doubt.

Just rate the course as is, and update your review if conditions have improved or worsened the next time you play.

 

[DavidSauls]

Good points. I certainly agree that no course or designer deserves the benefit of the doubt.

I was thinking of the reader---the person who might consider playing a course, or wants to know what to expect. Because I always look at reviews as giving advice to people who don't know the course. If you only play the course once, you're pretty much stuck with its conditions at that time. What about a course you're familiar with?

I know of a course that might be a 3.0 during part of the year, 5.0 at others. In the review I can describe that, but in simply assigning a number to compare it to other courses in its area---courses that vary less by season---it's not so clear.

 

[Dr.Smooth]

i completely disagree. sure the tees are $hit and there are no tee signs but the courses speak for themselves. you're obviously going to use a map and chances are if you are there playing the courses, it's during a tournament and you will have people to ask where to go and a group ahead of you to follow. plus camping on site.

the uneven tees and general level of maintenance are the only real problems. everything else is forgivable. amenities are fun but i play disc golf for the disc golf, not for the carts at Selah or the snack shack at BRP or the woodchipped greens at Visionquest, or bag hooks or brooms on each pad or whatever.

Can't agree more. If the course is great. I could care less about those little extras.. My philosophy of rating a course is truly on the design of the hole and general course aesthetics. For example a large teepad and the most modern basket do little for me if the hole is lacking in terms of how it shaped.