Multiple pins - why?/why not?

[Billipo]

I am surprised that more people do not use multiple pins in course design. I have heard players say they are confusing where multiple tees are easily understood.

I wanted to hear some opinions.. Poll attached.

I have designed courses where selective multiple pins (color coded) are used for different skill levels. I sometimes find an alternate pin placement can make a better more difficult hole than just by adding length. Plus holes are often designed that lesser players have shorter drive to landing zone, but rest of hole is the same for all skill levels.

Though I haven't been there for many years, I was impressed with Warwick, NY where the mix of 2 tees and 2 pins created many unique experiences.

Some use multiple pins or moveable targets seem to be for variety. Can't think of an example (other than Warwick) which I was that I was truly impressed. By impressed, I mean creating an entire different hole look with two equally good options. In some case, it seemed as if extra targets were forced to have options on every hole.

One other use could be for erosion purposes. I have used this method in one instance, but it was only temporary. It was a moveable target. Abandoned years ago.

 

[R-Ogre]

When your labor is free, it's cheaper to put in another tee pad than another basket. Can also be a touch confusing especially for rec players unless the baskets are color coded.

Single basket with multiple locations to move it to is a good solution but for people who are UDisc dweebs having mix and match layouts gets a little irritating.

 

[DiscFifty]

I think the obvious answer is multiple tees are easier for novice play because they are always there, where as changing a pin for novice play involves more work and would have to be approved by the entity in charge of the course. Multiple baskets are an option but involves more $$ and doubles the chance of vandalism. Most courses in the DFW have multiple pins but they don't get changed that often, mostly utilized in tournaments.

 

[Monocacy]

Patapsco Valley, one of my favorite local courses, has two tees, two baskets, and three pin positions on every hole. Baskets are color-coded.

Green baskets are permanently set in the long "C" pin position, so the long-to-long configuration is always available. At 9,200' this is known as the "green monster" layout, with mostly-wooded fairways averaging > 500' per hole.

The short (silver) basket rotates between "A" and "B" pin positions. The shortest possible layout is around 4,900', which makes for a quick (but not easy) par 3 course. Personally, I like the short-tee-to-long-basket option on most holes (7,934').

Because the "green monster" layout is so long and mostly wooded, baskets and landing zones are often blind. This can be frustrating for traveling players unless they warm up with a quick short-to-short round, which provides an opportunity to scout out basket locations and landing zones for the "green monster" layout.

Ditto Farms is another course with two tees and two baskets on every hole.

If you use multiple baskets, make sure that the short basket is not in play when people are playing to the long basket.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Post #3 makes a valid point, but I'm a fan of rotating pin placements for the following reasons:

1) Provides additional variety for local players (when well executed). When combined with dual tees, it can really enhance course replayability.

2) Helps combat erosion around the basket. I see too many courses were a single basket location simply develops an ever widening circle of dirt/mud around it.

With three placements rotating every month or so, each position is only used about 1/3 rd of the time, so the grass around the collar has a chance to recover.

 

[txmxer]

Multiple baskets on a hole is confusing if they are not well marked. Most courses don't get a lot of TLC over time so what was well marked initially may not be good after a few years and of weathering. If these issues are considered and addressed then I'd have no issue. It makes sense and I think in line with the Houck design thread discussion. Meaning designed for those that are playing the course.

I think multiple pin placement options are fine and help keep a course interesting if the pins are moved occasionally.

It does make scoring of rounds a bit less consistent potentially. The same "course" can play very differently based on pin placement.

Ultimately I want course designers to have as much creative flexibility to design great holes as possible so as to avoid poor choices to try and make the hole challenging.

 

[elmexdela]

i like multiple pin placement on my local courses

i dislike multiple pin placements when im bagging new courses due to confusion and sometimes literally throwing the wrong way (left or right not front or back (usually))

 

[elmexdela]

i voted ill play anywhere

 

[DiscFifty]

With three placements rotating every month or so, each position is only used about 1/3 rd of the time, so the grass around the collar has a chance to recover.

In a perfect scenario this is ideal. I just think the vast majority of public courses don't have the organized infrastructure to make it happen. I've been involved with several courses, and the amount of drama just to change a pin for a mini....is ridiculous.

 

[txmxer]

i like multiple pin placement on my local courses

i dislike multiple pin placements when im bagging new courses due to confusion and sometimes literally throwing the wrong way (left or right not front or back (usually))

Reading through course reviews, people are often commenting on the "confusing" layout particularly with multiple pin placements.

Why I mentioned making sure they are well marked if they are going have more than one basket on a hole. One of our local courses has added a second basket to the course--originally for tournament use. The original baskets have a 6" round disc on top with dark background and orange number--these are generally faded and can only be read once you are pretty close to putting range. The other baskets have a 6" round disc with dark border and painted red dot. At 300 feet +/- through trees and such, it's just about impossible to tell what's what on the tee pad.

 

[txmxer]

In a perfect scenario this is ideal. I just think the vast majority of public courses don't have the organized infrastructure to make it happen. I've been involved with several courses, and the amount of drama just to change a pin for a mini....is ridiculous.

shocking!

Ask 10 players what they want and you get 10 different answers and most will actively dislike what others want.

Just look at the "non disc players bag" thread. Mini's...no mini's. Snacks...NO snacks!...socks...NO socks!

:wall:

 

[BogeyNoMore]

IMHO, the "right" way to execute multiple pins requires a decent tee sign showing the entire hole with relative pin locations, and an obvious indicator (pin, bolt, washer, etc) to indicate what position the current layout is.

Dual full time baskets are great, but that really increases cost, so I have no expectation that could ever become the norm.

But it doesn't cost nearly that much to put an additional 18 or 36 collars in the ground.

 

[Billipo]

for sake of argument on "confusion", why would multiple pins more confusing than multiple tees? Multiple tees are commonplace.

Utilizing both options for best configurations should make sense assuming good visual indicators. Mix and match.

 

[txmxer]

for sake of argument on "confusion", why would multiple pins more confusing than multiple tees? Multiple tees are commonplace.

Utilizing both options for best configurations should make sense assuming good visual indicators. Mix and match.

it is all about good visual indicators ultimately.

My local par 3 has 2 or 3 tee pads on most holes. Only one is marked with a hole marker/map. To me that makes it pretty obvious that is the "main" tee pad. However, as described above, there are two baskets that are not well marked/differentiated and new players always complain about the course being confusing.

There is also a lack of marking for where the next tee is located.

After my first 2 visits, I started using UDisc and that helped significantly and now I'm pretty familiar with the layout.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I play one course with multiple pins.

They are a bit confusing. Part of the matter is that they are clearly color coded on the tee signs due to difficulty of layout, but the baskets aren't necessarily the color of the "pin". So the red pin might have a basket with a blue band and the blue pin might have a basket with a red band and then the next hole is totally different.

The multiple pins also make it very difficult to find the next hole, especially when you just played the wrong pin.

 

[Dingus]

My $.02 is that multiple permanent pins are always "bad". I like course design where a hole plays in a very specific way. The only way to design a multiple pin hole I find acceptable is to make sure the short pin is completely out of play from lines to the long pin. This means essentially two different fairways on a hole, which in my mind detracts from the hole in general.

The optimal way to build variety on a single hole is to have movable pin positions that are along the well defined fairway. The optimal way to build skill level variety is multiple tee boxes.

Any hole design which makes a black ace possible on a better-than-terrible throw is a bad hole design.

 

[txmxer]

If you read course reviews, I think you will see trends in the criticisms. Avoid those things that evoke the most common and negative responses.

 

[BuzzzChief]

I voted "I'll play anywhere" because I don't have a one-size-fits-all answer. It really depends on the property. But one of the keys to a "great" course is re-playability and I think variety is important. You need more than one pin position to really have variety.

I played Hiestand in Madison a few weeks ago, and the multiple tees/pins really make the course what it is. It's underrated at 3.94, probably because it's annoyingly busy. But it's busy for a reason! It's fun to play, has something for everyone, and the replay value is extremely high with the different hole configurations.

One of the best courses in this area (Round Lake IL, Fairfield / Squaw Creek) has two distinct, permanent layouts (white and gold) and it uses a mix of options to achieve it. Some holes have different tees, but share a basket. Some holes have the same tee, but multiple baskets. Some holes have two tees, two baskets. Part of the course completely diverges, then the layouts re-join later. Somehow it just works because the flow and signage are clear. But that strategy would be disaster on some properties.

I think the absolute best arrangement is something described earlier, if the property supports it: multiple tees, two baskets per hole, three pin positions per hole, with long/long always available and the short tees rotating back and forth.

 

[F. Howl]

I just prefer multiple sleeves with a rotating layout. I'd say especially if your course is on clay or silt and soil compaction is putting trees in a state of decline.

 

[autocrosscrx]

As someone that plays courses with a decent number of blind tee shots, rotating pins would be potentially be very annoying.