[MVP] MVP Disc Sports (Part VI)

[PMantle]

Needed a new Envy and decided to try a Fission. While I was ordering, I threw in a Fission Octane. Yeah, too OS for me, but I do encounter a head wind from time to time where this might work. Have been wanting to try one for a while, and if I get enough throws in with it, who knows?

 

[BillFleming]

I've been asked why I bag mostly gyro....what's so great about it. My response was:

I don't know if gyro is better than anything else, I'm not don't have the science behind it so the only thing I can say about gyro to non-gyro is that there are claims gyro improves spin. However, for me....it's not about the gyro so much, it's about the brand - MVP/Axiom. As a noodle-arm am, I feel their plastic/discs are more consistent than any other brand; but it is mainly about the shape of the disc for me. I'm mainly a forehand thrower and I prefer flatter top discs for my forehand throws. I haven't found another brand that has multiple flat top discs; so MVP\Axiom gives me the best choices for my forehand throws. And that is the main reason I have been throwing MVP/Axiom.

 

[thatdirtykid]

I hate innova for no good reason.

I never was much a fan and bagged mostly Discraft/Gateway back when those three were the options. Still had molds like Teebirds and Wraiths in and out of my bag a while. That said the last handful of years they have given good enough reasons to not be a fan.

Look...I'm not going to go into this because (see above) it's more often the archer and not the arrows. But as an engineer, with a degree in aerospace and a focus in aerodynamics, gyro is most certainly not a myth.

The question isn't: does this actually work? The question should be: is there a quantifiable and tangible difference? The reality is that 99% of us amateurs are not going to be able to repeatedly throw a disc the same velocity, spin rate, hyzer angle, nose angle to make a measured difference.

Just to clarify my point, I know the science of gyro is definitely real. I was saying it's benefits in DG are yet to really be proven.

There is two other questions to be asked:

Is the way MVP does overmold enough to make a difference? Cross sections showing how much core mold is in the rim makes me believe there's oppritunity for them to improve. Fission is a good move in that direction and possibly is closer to showing some practical differences. (Same weight, as similar as possible PLH/dome discs seem to fly differently, yet grip/human error are still factors)

If there are tangible benefits to increased gyroscopic effects, are those effects a positive for all desired flights? Do discs with less "gyro" change directions easier making some shot shapes easier?



Again it's a fallible comparison but I have thrown Proto wizards and everything since. And I can tell you protos and the later Nikko wizards (using the proto mold) do fly straighter for longer out of the box and have a similar perceived high speed stability.
The difference is thinner flight plate in the protos because Dave Mac has always seen the potential benefits to added gyroscopic effect.


Shoot, sorry I know we arent supposed to get back into this. Mostly I have recently been wondering about the potential advantages in some situations gyro may be inhibiting like putting where its more mass to spin up to achieve stability on a slower/shorter trajectory.

 

[strunk flugget]

Is the way MVP does overmold enough to make a difference?

...Fission is a good move in that direction...

So...as brief as possible... The difference is there but could be marginal enough to be covered up by throwing error. This is more or less what I was saying by archer vs arrow.

Shoot, sorry I know we arent supposed to get back into this. Mostly I have recently been wondering about the potential advantages in some situations gyro may be inhibiting like putting where its more mass to spin up to achieve stability on a slower/shorter trajectory.

Regarding spin...that is the whole principle of conservation of angular momentum. More mass further from center if spun at the same rate will maintain the spin rate longer. In other words it will require some arbitrary increase in energy to, theoretically, get an Ohm to the same spin rate as a Pilot. But once there, it will maintain that spin-rate longer (more glide, longer flight, etc)

I don't think this affects the flight characteristics negatively. I think that people don't necessarily account for this when putting or throwing and are somewhat flummoxed by the way the disc flies compared to what they expected it to do. It's quite possibly why MVP discs often seem more overstable than people expect. I can tell you I have worked on increasing my spin rate and it has seemed to help.

 

[zendragon]

There is two other questions to be asked:

Is the way MVP does overmold enough to make a difference? Cross sections showing how much core mold is in the rim makes me believe there's oppritunity for them to improve. Fission is a good move in that direction and possibly is closer to showing some practical differences. (Same weight, as similar as possible PLH/dome discs seem to fly differently, yet grip/human error are still factors)

If there are tangible benefits to increased gyroscopic effects, are those effects a positive for all desired flights? Do discs with less "gyro" change directions easier making some shot shapes easier?

So, I think the gyro effect, when compared to non-overmold discs is fairly negligible outside of Fission, but I do think Fission has a bit more of an effect. I try to be as scientific when I compare things as I can. So I am always comparing the PLH of my new discs when I buy them to the same mold when I have them before I ever throw them. I like to compare them both right side up and upside down to see dome, PLH, and all the things. So when I compared my 164g Fission Crave to my 160g Neutron Crave, and they were nearly identical, I expected them to fly pretty similarly. The Neutron flies very true to numbers, with -1 turn and about 1 fade. The Fission just goes straight, very little turn, very little fade. And I've noticed it really tends to lock onto whatever line I put it on better than anything else I have. If I throw it on anny, unless I give it a bunch of height, it just holds it to the ground. If I throw it on hyzer, it doesn't hyzerflip, it just rides it to the ground.

My Fission Envies also seem to get just a little more distance and still hold their line longer in general than my other Envies. They don't really fly differently than other Envies though otherwise. But Envies are by and large pretty HSS.

I think the problem is, Fission plastic is probably the least consistent plastic MVP makes. Whatever happens to it when it cools, probably something to do with the microbubbles, probably causes it to tend towards understability, because more often than not, Fission discs come out with a bit more dome and lower PLH and can get pretty flippy. But that's the difference in wing shape, and not in gyro effect causing it. So the data isn't really consistent enough for us to know for sure, but, tldr, minimizing as many variables as possible, I think the gyro effect of Fission is a real thing.


As to your second point, yeah, I do think that might be a bad thing sometimes if it's not what you want. I prefer my Neutron Crave over my Fission one for my turnover lines because it will pan out easier and not turn into a roller while still holding a negative bend a long way. But, for shots where you just want a long straight tunnel shot, you could do worse than a Fission Crave, that's for sure. Even if the current blend of Fission is slicker and stiffer than I like.

 

[BillFleming]

All this talk about whether 'gyro' is a real thing with MVP/Axiom or not is just talk at this point. Unless someone does a true scientific test of them, we may never really know if there is a real 'gyro effect'. But, did you buy gyro discs because you 'bought' into the gyro effect and that the discs are 'better' because of it? Or did you buy MVP/Axiom discs because you liked them?

I'll bet if you ask Simon and MVP's other sponsored players, they won't say they signed with MVP because the gyro effect is so wonderful and makes the discs fly so much better than any other brand. I'd bet they would say they signed because of the money and/or the discs feel good for them.

I didn't start using MVP/Axiom because of the gyro effect; I throw MVP/Axiom because I like their discs. They work better than any other brand for my forehand. If Kastaplast had discs that were much less domey, I'd probably be throwing all Kastaplast. But, MVP/Axiom are the only ones that have really nice, flat top discs. And I like their plastic and feel also.....I don't throw Streamline, even though they have flat discs, because I don't like the feel of their plastic. If the 'gryo effect' is a real thing, then that is one additional plus for MVP/Axiom, but it isn't why I buy or throw them.

So, can we let the 'gyro effect' rest until someone can prove it using science and/or engineering and just admit....we like MVP/Axiom for the quality of their discs?

 

[mas30066]

On the Streamline thing, is it the absence of whatever the weighted neutron variant is that MVP uses for the rim mold? Obviously the primary plastics are identical, but I could see the above being a perfectly legitimate line of distinction. I'm of a very similar perspective: the discs feel more compact and comfortable in my hand than do most other offerings. I think that has to do largely with the way the flight plates tend to mold flatter. Whether that has anything specifically to do with mating to the overmold... I mean, I think probably? But it also really doesn't matter. The subjective experience of how it feels and consequently flies is sufficient for me.

I still hold that Simon will be the best test platform, as it were, of the proposition. Not as to whether the physics is real. It is. But as to whether it's effective within the parameters of what a human can do to/with a disc. His physical gifts are such that if there's not a quantifiable difference for him, I don't think there will be for mortals either. But then, he feels like a feel guy, and it may only matter to him insofar as it's an important part of his partnership with MVP.

Also, I didn't quite know what to do with the Virus (or even why I bought it, honestly), but I'm coming around. It turns but -3 seems a bit strong. What it is (or at least what I'm finding it to be) is a punchier Hokom Crave. If you need Sarah to get there a little quicker, the Virus may be the anwer.

All this talk about whether 'gyro' is a real thing with MVP/Axiom or not is just talk at this point. Unless someone does a true scientific test of them, we may never really know if there is a real 'gyro effect'. But, did you buy gyro discs because you 'bought' into the gyro effect and that the discs are 'better' because of it? Or did you buy MVP/Axiom discs because you liked them?

I'll bet if you ask Simon and MVP's other sponsored players, they won't say they signed with MVP because the gyro effect is so wonderful and makes the discs fly so much better than any other brand. I'd bet they would say they signed because of the money and/or the discs feel good for them.

I didn't start using MVP/Axiom because of the gyro effect; I throw MVP/Axiom because I like their discs. They work better than any other brand for my forehand. If Kastaplast had discs that were much less domey, I'd probably be throwing all Kastaplast. But, MVP/Axiom are the only ones that have really nice, flat top discs. And I like their plastic and feel also.....I don't throw Streamline, even though they have flat discs, because I don't like the feel of their plastic. If the 'gryo effect' is a real thing, then that is one additional plus for MVP/Axiom, but it isn't why I buy or throw them.

So, can we let the 'gyro effect' rest until someone can prove it using science and/or engineering and just admit....we like MVP/Axiom for the quality of their discs?

 

[strunk flugget]

So, can we let the 'gyro effect' rest until someone can prove it using science and/or engineering and just admit....we like MVP/Axiom for the quality of their discs?

Honestly this is my frustration with even discussing the principles of conservation of angular momentum (i.e. 'gyro'). It's already proven, it's a literal scientific principle. The only way it's a marketing gimmick is if the rim is not a more dense plastic than the flight plate.

As for the pros not talking about it, (aside from the fact that I'm 99% sure they aren't allowed to publicly state that) it's the same reason there is such a debate about it. The effects and supposed gains of "gyro" technology are marginal. The gains MVP are seeking are marginal gains.

Aside from adjusting the center of mass on the rim there are plenty of aerodynamic principles which could mitigate the 'gyro' technology like the absence or presence of dome (one key differentiating factor between mvp and other companies, as an example).

Of course, I throw MVP because they are quality: top plastic choices, consistency between runs (for the most part), and yes…because they are attempting to push the design envelope using a proven scientific theory in a novel way. But of course, as I've already stated…the only way it's just "marketing" is if the rim plastic is not more dense than the flight plate. And I'm fairly certain that's already been proven to be more dense.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Yay engineers!!!

Gyro is proven scientifically... mass and weight and momentum and ****. Gyro exists, it is there.
.
.
.
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YMMV

 

[strunk flugget]

Yay engineers!!!

Gyro is proven scientifically... mass and weight and momentum and ****. Gyro exists, it is there.
.
.
.
.
YMMV

I tried to edit my post but must've missed the time window to do so…

I'm gonna hang it up for now…this topic comes up from time to time and I already feel like it's beating a dead horse. Bottom line is find discs you line and throw them.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I tried to edit my post but must've missed the time window to do so…

I'm gonna hang it up for now…this topic comes up from time to time and I already feel like it's beating a dead horse. Bottom line is find discs you line and throw them.

Ha pretty much, there is science there, margin dependent but it's there. Whether you see any benefit is debatable.

More rim weight=more gyro.

Lines to fly, flip over distance, extended gyro push... who's to say what works for whom....

Fact is they throw a little different, like it or not. Better or not. I think it's indisputable that there is an effect.

Noobs complaining about absolute soul crushing lack of distance is as much proof or more than a pro gaining some yardage. Ya gotta get the nose down and spin up.

Paradox's excluded.

I got two more beer before I hang it up tonight

 

[Mike C]

Does anyone have a line on eclipse volts? tempted to put them in the bag, but I'd want a few back-ups if I were gonna make that move. I've only found one with an asking price of $45.

 

[strunk flugget]

Does anyone have a line on eclipse volts? tempted to put them in the bag, but I'd want a few back-ups if I were gonna make that move. I've only found one with an asking price of $45.

I don't think they made them after the 1.0 eclipse. I had one but sold it, it got unexpectedly flippy too fast for my liking. I have a trance I really like and am waiting for the stock release of that. I have a fresh neutron terra, a beat neutron terra, then the trace to cover 8 speed.

 

[Mike C]

Did some distance field work today.

Between my flippy skull boy Mayhem, my straight neutron and proton x out, and overstable plasma, I have a wide range of stabilities covered. Skullboy flips hard, while the Plasma will fight out of a slight anny release in a mild headwind.

My better throws were in the 500-530' range today, which is back to where I was. If I can find a good Teleport I think I could get 550-560' on a good nose down rip.

The x out Teleport I got is pretty beefy. Throwing it 450' in a mild headwind it flew straight to fade. Feels more nose angle sensitive than I remember.

Had a couple throws with my Zenith. Still don't feel dialed in with it. Feels flippier than expected bh, and fades really hard on my less powerful forehand. Not making the bag for now.

Surprise of the day was the old blue Neutron Nitro with some dome I used to bag. I forgot how much glide it has. Rim feels really close to my Mayhems and stability is a notch over from the plasma. I remember it being more of a meat hook. I took the Dimension out of my bag because it felt a little fsst and overstable fot me, but this Nitro is going back in my bag. It will compliment my Mayhems well.

I don't think they made them after the 1.0 eclipse. I had one but sold it, it got unexpectedly flippy too fast for my liking. I have a trance I really like and am waiting for the stock release of that. I have a fresh neutron terra, a beat neutron terra, then the trace to cover 8 speed.

yeah the more I think about it the less sense it makes trying to bag a discontinued version of the Volt.

 

[gwsmallwood]

Does anyone have a line on eclipse volts? tempted to put them in the bag, but I'd want a few back-ups if I were gonna make that move. I've only found one with an asking price of $45.

I'm holding out hope we'll see them again this year sometime. It's my favorite mold and the one slot I haven't been able to fill in my glow bag. Dos X is too domey. The Eclipse Insanity isn't bad, but not quite as stable as I'd like. The Eclipse Lift is about the same as the Insanity flight wise, but I don't like the wing shape as much on forehand.

 

[Nothing but cage]

I lost my last 2 eclipse volts at Roscoe Ewing last year. In the same round. On the same hole.

 

[thatdirtykid]

Kinda interesting that the Volt and Crave, seemingly some of the more popular molds, have been two of the less frequent Eclipse runs.

 

[Mike C]

Kinda interesting that the Volt and Crave, seemingly some of the more popular molds, have been two of the less frequent Eclipse runs.

I didn't realize they made eclipse craves until last week, and they're sold out everywhere I've looked.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I didn't realize they made eclipse craves until last week, and they're sold out everywhere I've looked.

They haven't run those for a while... I don't even know if they ran 2.0's.. I've got a few Halloween 1.0 eclipse, I think they are 2020? 2021?

Still looking forward to 2.0 eclipse uplinks and any lighter fairway driver.. kinda hoping for some eclipse rhythms, maybe a relay but I'd take craves. Seems like with their corrections in factory that they are more likely to run a few more molds in glow.

 

[Mike C]

They haven't run those for a while... I don't even know if they ran 2.0's.. I've got a few Halloween 1.0 eclipse, I think they are 2020? 2021?

Still looking forward to 2.0 eclipse uplinks and any lighter fairway driver.. kinda hoping for some eclipse rhythms, maybe a relay but I'd take craves. Seems like with their corrections in factory that they are more likely to run a few more molds in glow.

I'm talking with them about getting a custom order. I'll check and see if eclipse craves are an option. I plan to mostly order eclipse discs.