My Backhand Journey

Vigurrr

Newbie
Joined
Jul 4, 2022
Messages
6
Hello,

This year I have started taking my backhand form more seriously and have come to a point where I need someone else's opinion on the matter. I have created this thread to post videos of my form and hopefully get some good tips for improvement.

I am starting off with SW22 one leg drill.
I can throw understable fairways (Discraft Heat) ~300 ft this way, but the throw itself doesn't look very good on video.

Video of the throw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kkhh8D7hPk

1) Should I be putting more weight on the back leg during backswing?
2) What is causing my shoulder to collapse? Should I just focus more on keeping the elbow out and away from the body?
Collapsed_Shoulder.png


Any other suggestions are welcome.
 
1. Yes, let the rear heel on the ground so pressure moves from toes to heel and back to toes.
2. Over-rotating forward collapses the shoulder. Note how your front hip backs away from target during the swing and you rise up, while my lead hip remains stacked over ankle after shift and everything swivels thru level on the hip. Keep your eyes back on the disc during the swing.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139973

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I tried the figure-8 motion pattern and for couple of throws the front shoulder was not collapsing. Unfortunately I didn't have much time to practice it, because I ran into another problem.
I have injured the DIP joint of my index finger from the snap. Hopefully not too severly, but will take some time off backhand throws to let it heal.
HandSurgery-1.jpg


Before I start again, does there seem anything fundamentally wrong with my grip? It feels comfortable and I am getting a good snap off the index finger.
https://www.upload.ee/image/14343111/DSC_0219.JPG
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https://www.upload.ee/image/14343117/DSC_0221.JPG

A video of a throw with this grip:
https://youtu.be/NjYSHgv8Glo
 
1. Try moving your thumb pressure more between index and middle fingers and slightly closer to disc center instead of edge. Your thumb is a bit too forward over index finger and too close to edge. Want to feel like your thumb is pushing/leveraging the disc out.

2. Your rear heel remains flat on ground start to finish. Start address on rear tippy toes, then walk back to heel, and back forward to tippy toes again.

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1. Try moving your thumb pressure more between index and middle fingers and slightly closer to disc center instead of edge. Your thumb is a bit too forward over index finger and too close to edge. Want to feel like your thumb is pushing/leveraging the disc out.

I totalt agree with you. However, in the link regarding grip in the instructional videos sticky, the author writes this regarding "thumb forward". Do you disagree with this?
c931a167000c922cb8a5d2dd0a251135.jpg
 
It's been a while since I posted my form for review and any feedback and suggested drills are welcome.
It seems like my shoulders are opening too early and also the brace is weak (knee bent).

Video of the throw:
https://youtu.be/kcdr8l4oFXM
 
You need to fix your posture to fix the other issues and help prevent injury.

Your abs and left arm are not engaged at all so you have massive anterior pelvic tilt and lower spine extension that disconnects your shoulders from your hips. Motorcross athletes purposely go into spine extension to decouple the whip effect so they don't get thrown off the bike landing jumps. You want to do the opposite.

funky chicken posture vs cobra hammer.png
 
For the past week I've been working on using my core and glutes more to neutralize the pelvis and spine. This has easily added 10-20m of distance to my throw (Getting to 110 - 130 m now). But it's been really hard to keep my spine neutral consistently, so I will have to keep working on it.

This is a throw from today:
https://youtu.be/UiVpPAQFCMU

The lower back and left arm seem better than last time.

I see that on the reachback I am notably leaning to my side - Is this something I should address and try to keep my upper body more upright?
Also, should I try to keep the disc more "out" than "behind" for the reachback?
Swingback.png
 
1. You are too over your toes in the backswing.
Screen Shot 2024-05-13 at 6.19.36 PM.png



2. You are over-rotating beyond the hit point.
 
Since my x-step feels quite awkward and clunky, I've started experimenting with a small hop and the general feel is much better.

Video of throws from yesterday - Since these are two separate shots, they are not perfectly synced.
Side-view is not filmed stationary - I will make sure to fix this next time.


Things that I'm currently focusing on:
1) Watching toward the line of throw to avoid turning my head away on backswing.
2) Keeping my torso more upright throughout the throw, both on backswing and the throw itself.
3) Keeping my core and glutes engaged to avoid anterior pelvic tilt and lumbar spine flexion.
4) Lining my weight shift a bit left from the target and "falling" into the plant - Hersheyzer / Kick the can drills.

I still need to work on my body angle and keep it more upright.
I also noticed (and uncomfortably felt in the knee) not pivoting on my heel for the back-view throw. Does the brace & pivot on side-view throw seem OK and safe?
 
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Might as well pass this along while you're at it. I didn't understand it (physically) until very recently.

Make your pump very long off the left foot here rather than what you are doing. Disc and arm should be way out ahead of you pulling you forward an up into the "prep step" (step before X-step). Should help fix the sequence and posture issues in the long run.

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Thank you for the input.
Do you mean that I should simply increase the magnitude of the pump and aim for something similar to what Feldberg is doing?
The screenshot you have posted is a bit confusing since it seems to be comparing different stages of the throw - I am at step 2, whereas SW is at step 3.

1715922064912.png
 
I compared the same stages of the throw.

Most of Sidewinder's foot pressure is still on his rear foot when his pump is approaching full extension. Notice that in his drill move he is pumping more up with his whole body, which is important to understand the differences between you, Feldberg, and him.

1715951388474.png

I used to misunderstand the following. Sequence + posture.

That action is bringing Sidewinder's shoulder line and posture "up" with it. If he took that same pump more forward (and shoulders and posture with it), it would be even more obvious that the pump is helping bring his momentum forward more like Feldberg.

Why do Sidewinder and Feldberg look different at first?

Relative to Sidewinder, Feldberg is striding more open to target into the "prep step" and then gets fully closed off in the backswing. Sidewinder's move is also a little different because he allows more bent elbow than Feldberg does. That's important to understand what looks a little different in their sequences - once you account for the posture and mechanics I would call them roughly "the same" (and again, was confused by it for a long time myself).


What should you, @vigurr do about this?
Making your whole move like Feldberg would give you an elite throw, and minimally a lot of excellent body learning, so I would never discourage that. Could be that adjusting the pump helps right away, maybe not. I couldn't do it at all until the last two weeks myself. Might make more sense to you & your body later.


Context/long term points
There's a lot I could point out here but you have only been back for 11 days, so I would recommend you only focus on fixing a thing or two at a time for 1-3 weeks at a time.

The reason I chose to point out the pump is because it's always dramatically connected to everything else in the move. Sometimes you need to adjust something else instead. But a bad pump sequence and posture can definitely spoil the whole move. I might be one of the only other people I've seen around here stick with the pump throughout almost my entire development, so I have usually made most of the mistakes other people make.

IMHO people underestimate Feldberg's move overall. It is deceptively sophisticated while being one of the most "natural" ways to move. I will try to balance the forest with the trees. Marking up your own image there in numeric order, notice that:

1. Feldberg is more aggressive with the disc/arm unit overall. It's always slightly leading his move. It's fine to cradle it back initially in principle, but not when it is causing issues like yours. The disc is more framed or "trapped" within his chest posturally.

2. You might be naturally pigeon-toed, but based on experience I think what's happening is your pump and feet are disconnected, and your feet are scrunching in unnaturally pigeon-toed trying to grab the ground for balance. Feldberg is doing a natural athletic walk into a hop. Because his pump was already framed well within his chest and aggressively forward, he has no restrictions in making the pump build even more momentum in the next step. Your pump is keeping your momentum back, and your leading foot "knows" you are about to be off balance so it is crimping in trying to grab the ground to keep you from falling down.

3. Evidence that you are off balance and that your pump is not actually connected to your shoulders and posture. Can't fake it.

4 and 5. You are tipping over rather than shifting underneath. FWIW this is one of the most common errors in the x-step whether or not you use the pump. Good pump tends to help it (for me, dramatically). Bad pump makes it necessarily worse because it gets you off balance.

From 4 to 5, you have the problem Clement is talking about at 5:32- 5:50: your spine is trapped back on your X-stepping rear leg rather than shifting forward with your body onto the front leg. You want that to happen in your One leg drill and standstills, too.

This is all related to the chest "trapping" idea I wrote above. He describes it as "the pressure coming from the chest" here. You are "letting the pressure/wall fall out the right/rear side like he talks about at 9:00.

I used to have every single one of these problems. They still pop in a bit here and there and I have to drill them back out.

FWIW, everything from 4-5 was WAY easier for me to learn in standstills, and I still work on it in standstills. Unless a player already has elite movement, it is almost certain that they have posture issues that are easier to isolate in their standstills. Learning & relearning the pump in X-step became its own project afterwards. I am often going back to my standstills when I see something drift in my X-step to help figure out what is going on.

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