Nikko issued an excessive time warning on Hole 5…

[chevis]

sounds like it took a while to arrive at and determine the lie, which is allowed under the current rule

the excessive time was going back to my bag after determining the lie.

 

[biscoe]

This is the PGA standard, with checkpoints on the course that you have to hit within time. This eliminates the need to have a tournament representative on every card.

Are backups ever a thing in traditional golf events? That seems to me to be the potential problem with applying their regs to dg.

 

[Al Dente]

As much as I personally object to slow play, I have never read a suggestion that I thought would fairly fix the problem. I wouldn't want us following each other around the course with stop watches yelling, "Your thirty seconds starts now!".

The thirty seconds could be a guideline rather than a rule. Slow play could then be treated more like an out of bounds call. A player could announce to the card that he feels another player is taking too long to play. The other player or players would then have to concur with this opinion for any warning or penalty to be issued.

 

[txmxer]

As much as I personally object to slow play, I have never read a suggestion that I thought would fairly fix the problem. I wouldn't want us following each other around the course with stop watches yelling, "Your thirty seconds starts now!".

The thirty seconds could be a guideline rather than a rule. Slow play could then be treated more like an out of bounds call. A player could announce to the card that he feels another player is taking too long to play. The other player or players would then have to concur with this opinion for any warning or penalty to be issued.

That's pretty much how it goes now. If someone is repeatedly taking too long to play, others take notice and occasionally will say something. That may get them to start running a stop watch if it continues.

 

[Streets]

This is really only an issue because of whiners on the live chat during DGPT events.

 

[txmxer]

This is really only an issue because of whiners on the live chat during DGPT events.

Disagree. You can see Gibson becoming visibly annoyed with Gannon Burr in a couple of events, just as you can see Ezra Aderhold getting frustrated with Nikko.

As far as the fans go, watching live disc golf becomes less entertaining when Nikko spins his disc for 45 seconds to miss a 20 foot putt.

 

[robdeforge]

This is really only an issue because of whiners on the live chat during DGPT events.

it's really only an issue because somehow Nikko has gotten actually seems to be playing even slower this year than ever before

the excessive time was going back to my bag after determining the lie.

Ah ok, now I understand. I would agree that *technically* you violated the letter of the law, but IMO not the spirit of the law. If it happened a second time I might say something but a one off situation like this is not the problem (IMO)

 

[dmoore1998]

I totally agree there's a problem, I just disagree on the solution.

I think there can be a lot of solutions. I just tend to start with "does ball golf have a system for this that works". In my mind the answer is "yes"...so then that should be the baseline for improvement. If there's something much better than that...great. I just see no reason to be worse than that (and it also addresses a lot of people's concerns...you don't need a billion more volunteers, you don't have the players calling their own fouls, etc). There are obvious downsides as well (in an individual sport I don't love penalizing an entire card). I just see it as "it should at least be as good as this system that already works in a super similar sport".

 

[robdeforge]

I think there can be a lot of solutions. I just tend to start with "does ball golf have a system for this that works". In my mind the answer is "yes"...so then that should be the baseline for improvement. If there's something much better than that...great. I just see no reason to be worse than that (and it also addresses a lot of people's concerns...you don't need a billion more volunteers, you don't have the players calling their own fouls, etc). There are obvious downsides as well (in an individual sport I don't love penalizing an entire card). I just see it as "it should at least be as good as this system that already works in a super similar sport".

are we trying to solve the same problem in disc golf as they are in golf? (I mean obviously both are about slow play but otherwise, I have no idea about what is the purpose of excessive time rules in golf)

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Disagree. You can see Gibson becoming visibly annoyed with Gannon Burr in a couple of events, just as you can see Ezra Aderhold getting frustrated with Nikko.

As far as the fans go, watching live disc golf becomes less entertaining when Nikko spins his disc for 45 seconds to miss a 20 foot putt.

The comments below are strictly my personal take on it. They may or may not reflect other people's perspectives.

I find it kind of hard to watch live streamed coverage in real time, simply because tournament play is slow by it's very nature. Plus it's that much slower given the distances on many of these DGPT, temp layouts on primarily open courses.

A few players taking an extra 15 sec or so on half their putts doesn't help things, but I don't necessarily think it makes the event that much less watchable.

I rarely watch the full livestream as it is.
I prefer to tune in late, go back to the begining, and fast forward the parts where players walk to their next lie.

Going to the event is a completely different experience. I've basically committed spending all day at Toboggan watching DGLO or Am Nats. It's just plain more fun to be there, plus I'm outside, up close and personal.

But if I'm watching on my couch, chances are there are other things I'd like to do, (in addition to, not necessarily instead of) spending the day watching the event. So I might work a round on, or go kayaking, or whatever, and FF through the coverage to catch the action, and skip the walking.

I might miss some shots and a bunch of comments, but I get most of what I want.

Even if they can guarantee every player throws withing the 30 sec window, I'm still gonna FF though all the non-throwing action.

Post Production coverage has spoiled me. YMMV

 

[BillFleming]

I don't think the rules need to be rewritten to reflect our actual behavior (I think they need to be rewritten to be more clear in some cases and not as poorly conceived in others). Rules need to mostly have a "strict letter of the law"...and that should be more strict the higher up you go. If I'm playing in a pickup basketball game and a guy starts dribbling up the court, picks up the ball, ties his shoes, and starts dribbling again...that's fine. That's not fine in the NBA.

I would argue that in MOST cases...we as disc golfers simply don't want to enforce ANY rules on others. If they were rewritten to reflect our ACTUAL behavior, we'd have no rules (an exaggeration, but not a big one IMO).

Paul McBeth broke the rules...I don't consider that to be "cheating" though. It's no different than if I line up offsides in football. It's breaking the rules, it should be called and be a penalty...but it's hard to say I was cheating.

I agree with the part about the higher level of play, the more the rules need to be enforced/followed....except it can lead to players not following the rules as they move up. The "but no one told me that was against the rules". An example is the flipping of your disc to mark your lie. It's ignored when playing casual or in non-sanctioned tournaments/leagues (I've seen Nate Sexton and others do it during practice rounds on video). So, the player gets used to it and then does it in a sanctioned round - whoops, penalty. I will let players in a casual/non-sanctioned round know "that is okay for casual rounds, but if you play in a sanctioned tournament/league it will get you a penalty". Same with "tapping the chains" end the hole.

 

[dmoore1998]

are we trying to solve the same problem in disc golf as they are in golf? (I mean obviously both are about slow play but otherwise, I have no idea about what is the purpose of excessive time rules in golf)

Yes, the "Nikkos" exist in golf too. Standing over their ball, endlessly addressing the ball, wiggling the club, etc.

 

[dmoore1998]

I agree with the part about the higher level of play, the more the rules need to be enforced/followed....except it can lead to players not following the rules as they move up. The "but no one told me that was against the rules". An example is the flipping of your disc to mark your lie. It's ignored when playing casual or in non-sanctioned tournaments/leagues (I've seen Nate Sexton and others do it during practice rounds on video). So, the player gets used to it and then does it in a sanctioned round - whoops, penalty. I will let players in a casual/non-sanctioned round know "that is okay for casual rounds, but if you play in a sanctioned tournament/league it will get you a penalty". Same with "tapping the chains" end the hole.

That's what already exists though, so I don't think it's being made worse. I'm just trying to make a distinction between thinking we need real officials at big pro events...and understanding that same thing isn't going to happen at my local C-tier. If someone foot faults, you always SHOULD call it.

I do think it points out a pretty big disparity though in the reminder that PDGA rules aren't disc golf rules...they are only PDGA rules for sanctioned events. It's just more...murky...than other professional sports...because there is no "Basketball Rules" where people who play at the Y follow the NBA rules (or even HS or college following those rules). It's one of the problems of trying to develop an overarching set of rules to apply to all kinds of professional leagues down to some pretty low level amateur ones (league being a stand-in for "tour" as comparing other pro leagues to the disc golf tours).

 

[flatflip]

Are backups ever a thing in traditional golf events? That seems to me to be the potential problem with applying their regs to dg.

There are, but are minimized by the rule structure.

You just have to hole out within X minutes (depending on group size; for a foursome I think it is 14 minutes) of the previous group, so you are not penalized by backups.

 

[araytx]

The comments below are strictly my personal take on it. They may or may not reflect other people's perspectives.

I find it kind of hard to watch live streamed coverage in real time, simply because tournament play is slow by it's very nature. Plus it's that much slower given the distances on many of these DGPT, temp layouts on primarily open courses.

A few players taking an extra 15 sec or so on half their putts doesn't help things, but I don't necessarily think it makes the event that much less watchable.

I rarely watch the full livestream as it is.
I prefer to tune in late, go back to the begining, and fast forward the parts where players walk to their next lie.

Going to the event is a completely different experience. I've basically committed spending all day at Toboggan watching DGLO or Am Nats. It's just plain more fun to be there, plus I'm outside, up close and personal.

But if I'm watching on my couch, chances are there are other things I'd like to do, (in addition to, not necessarily instead of) spending the day watching the event. So I might work a round on, or go kayaking, or whatever, and FF through the coverage to catch the action, and skip the walking.

I might miss some shots and a bunch of comments, but I get most of what I want.

Even if they can guarantee every player throws withing the 30 sec window, I'm still gonna FF though all the non-throwing action.

Post Production coverage has spoiled me. YMMV

I get your personal take BNM. Just realize that people who aren't into watching live ARE NOT the crowd that the DGPT is trying to attract and keep. I get your opinion completely. It just isn't about what is happening in the DGPT currently. Post production lovers are awesome, we want you, too. That's just not what they (the DGPT) have poured resources into to make the DGN a viable product.

Aaaaargh! The internet can be so exasperating.

My point was that we, disc golf players, neither conform to nor enforce the rules as written. We have collectively voted through our behavior to at times ignore the strict letter of the law. The rules should be rewritten to reflect our actual behavior, or some discarded aItogether as they are not enforceable in an equitable manner. I don't believe that we, or Paul McBeth specifically, are cheating.

The hole in question was 7 during the second round.

I got your point the first time; I just disagree with it. By your philosophy, there could never be a "rules change" because the players aren't playing by that (new) rule currently. I've been an official in other sports. The purpose of the rules is to be sure (or provide as close to as possible) that all competitors are playing the same game. You don't think being allowed to wait 45 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes, etc., to putt is playing the same game for all competitors on a windy gusty day? No way it is. That's just one example.

As much as I personally object to slow play, I have never read a suggestion that I thought would fairly fix the problem. I wouldn't want us following each other around the course with stop watches yelling, "Your thirty seconds starts now!".

The thirty seconds could be a guideline rather than a rule. Slow play could then be treated more like an out of bounds call. A player could announce to the card that he feels another player is taking too long to play. The other player or players would then have to concur with this opinion for any warning or penalty to be issued.

That is basically the rule now, with the exception that the warning doesn't require concurrence of the group. If a player takes more than his allowable time, then another in the group has to concur before a penalty is issued. It's a TD that doesn't need group concurrence.

 

[araytx]

I saw the same thing. I think it was R2F9, but I don't recall the hole. He had several awkward lies on the front 9. Disc Golf guy talked about it specifically when PMB couldn't get set to make a putt. He did ultimately make the short putt through some small branches.

^^There were a couple of holes in the final round where he took quite a bit of time to putt from an awkward stance. I didn't time, or remember which holes, but would not be surprised if he was over 30 on one of them.

So it looks from one of Terry's comments, that McBeth thought that spectators were in the line of where he was throwing. That is one of the allowable reasons not to throw yet, because of the Disc Golfer's Code. The "shot clock" should not be running if he feels people or animals are in that area, hence it isn't safe.

 

[biscoe]

So it looks from one of Terry's comments, that McBeth thought that spectators were in the line of where he was throwing. That is one of the allowable reasons not to throw yet, because of the Disc Golfer's Code. The "shot clock" should not be running if he feels people or animals are in that area, hence it isn't safe.

No spectators on the one I noticed. Paul was maybe 15 feet out and in a bunch of stuff. Took him about 45 seconds to get the putt off. Since he doesn't do it on a regular basis I think it was fine. That is one of the main problems here- I don't think anyone wants to deny a player some extra time once in a while when they actually need it. The players who make a habit of it are the issue and the rules don't (can't?) discriminate between the two. I would almost say that on the tour there is only a single player who is the issue.

 

[araytx]

No spectators on the one I noticed. Paul was maybe 15 feet out and in a bunch of stuff. Took him about 45 seconds to get the putt off. Since he doesn't do it on a regular basis I think it was fine. That is one of the main problems here- I don't think anyone wants to deny a player some extra time once in a while when they actually need it. The players who make a habit of it are the issue and the rules don't (can't?) discriminate between the two. I would almost say that on the tour there is only a single player who is the issue.

I can agree with that.

It's kinda like the serve clock in tennis. Those who rarely approach zero aren't called as tightly, as those who are tossing it up with 1 or 0 seconds nearly every time.