me too OAT give me a break
to me your timing is off or you are throwing crooked you big dummy! :hfive:
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OAT Vs. turn over
- Thread starter chiroflyer
- Start date
me too OAT give me a break
to me your timing is off or you are throwing crooked you big dummy! :hfive:
does this not make the least bit of sense to anyone else? by this logic, EVERY shot has to have oat. otherwise the disc wouldnt spin or turnover at all.:\ and ive tried to throw discs end over end. its not a very efficient style. discs were designed to rotate on a plane around the center of the flight plate, not to be chucked end over end like a 3 year old does it.
flutter is the key sign of a disc thrown with oat. it is any spin added to the disc that isnt on the rotational plane of the center of the disc. thats added to the DISC, not the player. johnny thrower can start his throw low and follow through flat or start with a low backswing and follow through down and still not be putting oat on the disc. in fact i find the hyzer flip the shot least susceptible to oat.
but guys in garus vid arent oating. if they were the disc would have shot off right WAAAAY earlier. dont confuse the noobz. oat is something to be eliminated in ones stroke.:thmbup:
superium
Eagle Member
I call it "wrist rolling"
- Joined
- May 3, 2010
- Messages
- 3,791
I think of it like this:
OAT happens when the angle between the wrist (and therefore disc) and your forearm is not a straight line. Or, in general, if the disc is not parallel to the plane that your arm movement is on.
You can put a hyzer or anhyzer on a disc by adjusting the plane that your arm travels on, without changing the angle between the arm and the wrist. This will be an OAT-free shot that will go left or right depending on the plane that the arm was on.
Personally, I can easily tell when I put OAT on my TL, for instance. If I have 10 throws at the same hyzer angle, 8/10 times it will just hyzer like normal. Those other 2 times, it will scoot right or even turn over, and I know my angles were off.
As far as throwing a disc harder/faster than its speed, I don't know. I can't get them out that far. But, for the majority of people who can't either, try to see how far you can get slower discs to go on a hyzer without turning over, and OAT will rear its ugly head at some point.
OAT happens when the angle between the wrist (and therefore disc) and your forearm is not a straight line. Or, in general, if the disc is not parallel to the plane that your arm movement is on.
You can put a hyzer or anhyzer on a disc by adjusting the plane that your arm travels on, without changing the angle between the arm and the wrist. This will be an OAT-free shot that will go left or right depending on the plane that the arm was on.
Personally, I can easily tell when I put OAT on my TL, for instance. If I have 10 throws at the same hyzer angle, 8/10 times it will just hyzer like normal. Those other 2 times, it will scoot right or even turn over, and I know my angles were off.
As far as throwing a disc harder/faster than its speed, I don't know. I can't get them out that far. But, for the majority of people who can't either, try to see how far you can get slower discs to go on a hyzer without turning over, and OAT will rear its ugly head at some point.
* point 1does this not make the least bit of sense to anyone else? by this logic, EVERY shot has to have oat. otherwise the disc wouldnt spin or turnover at all.:\ and ive tried to throw discs end over end. its not a very efficient style. discs were designed to rotate on a plane around the center of the flight plate, not to be chucked end over end like a 3 year old does it.
flutter is the key sign of a disc thrown with oat. it is any spin added to the disc that isnt on the rotational plane of the center of the disc. thats added to the DISC, not the player. johnny thrower can start his throw low and follow through flat or start with a low backswing and follow through down and still not be putting oat on the disc. in fact i find the hyzer flip the shot least susceptible to oat.
but guys in garus vid arent oating. if they were the disc would have shot off right WAAAAY earlier. dont confuse the noobz. oat is something to be eliminated in ones stroke.:thmbup:
I disagree for this reason. The spin on the disc is not necessarily reflective of the angle of release or whether or not you overpowered the disc. You can throw a flat throw at different power levels and get different throws. None of this is OAT, its the disc going shorter or farther or more left or right due to the power,glide and resistance to fade which is due to the discs rotation keeping it level thus making it go straight.
* point 2
Hyzer flipping IS OAT. A hyzer flip is a perfect example of how to use OAT to get results you want. Its the most pure example of OAT IMO. You take a disc and overpower it to get it to flip. But the desired result is for it to go straight. So you turn the disc to a hyzer release so instead of flipping and turning right, it flips to flat and goes straight. The same disc thrown with the same power and flat will turn over, this is bad OAT and usually not done on purpose but usually due to trying to muscle a disc too much.
wrist roll is only 1 cause of OAT, shoulder placement, hip placement, balance in your stance all these things could cause you to have OAT if you are off on them.
Stop your gonna piss off the flutter guys by explaining that crooked throwing is oat.
i guess im thinking "flutter" is something other than what I thought it was. I was pretty sure "flutter" was more of a grip/release angle issue, but it can be caused by overpowering a disc but with drivers it seems to me the cause is usually the former
i think you guys are talking out your arse.:\
Wrong, Here is the correct definition of turn.
Turn: When a disc is fired off, it carries a lot of speed in its initial path. This causes the disc to act like it ignores the friction of air for a short period of time. Because we can count air friction as having a negligible effect during this period, all that factors into the tendency of the disc is torque. The direction of torque on a RHBH throw is clockwise (if seen from above). This means that the disc has a speed about its center of gravity which is different from its speed at its port and starboard wing.
Figure 4: Dorsal view of disc, disc is flying up.
Because the velocity on the port (left) wing of the disc is higher, the air must flow faster over its dorsal surface on that side, causing its pressure to decrease. On the flipside, air is travelling much slower over the dorsal side of the starboard (right) wing, meaning the pressure is much higher. This pressure gradient causes the disc to tilt to the right, which is what we know as turn. Because turn is velocity-based, it is easy to see why it is dominant only during the initial part of a disc's flight. The other part is dominated by...
Found here:http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2249
Sorry I grabbed the wrong thread, the fixed one:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2250
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2250
rocthecourse
* Ace Member *
You can hyzer flip with OAT, but not every hyzer flip is OAT. It is from high speed turn. If you want to test get a DX driver and beat it to crap and throw it on a hyzer no matter how good your form is the disc will flip(turnover.)
In layman's terms.
Think of the slow vs fast discs. You need to really get a boss up to speed for it to turn, but a slower disc turns easily. It's caused by air pressure and not OAT (but it can be caused by OAT).
If thrown cleanly, with a slow disc. The speed on the right side of the disc (RHBH) is slower than the left side. Just as Rameka says.
Speed is inversely proportional to pressure. That means that as the air speed over the surface moves faster, the pressure lessens, but if it's slower, the pressure rises.
At the center
Speed over the top: slower
Speed over the bottom: faster
That creates lift at the center, by having more pressure on the bottom. It moves slower because there is more surface area to go over than the bottom.
Now keep that constant at the center, but now lets add in the sides.
The left side is going much much faster because of the spin of the disc + the velocity. Since it's going faster, the speed over the top is catching up to the speed over the bottom fractionally, causing less upward pressure. The bottom speed will increase, but the speed over the top is increasing faster. Also due to surface area (less to go over on the sides)
The right side is going slower than the center of the disc, and much much slower than the left side of the disc. It's spinning backward at that side in relation to the direction of the disc. Due to that the pressure is so slow over the top, that it starts pressing down on the disc, overcoming the lift on the wing. Just as the left side is going faster fractionally, the right side is going slower fractionally.
As the discs get faster, it takes more speed to get the differences in fractions to be to the point of downward pressure on the right side.
Think of the slow vs fast discs. You need to really get a boss up to speed for it to turn, but a slower disc turns easily. It's caused by air pressure and not OAT (but it can be caused by OAT).
If thrown cleanly, with a slow disc. The speed on the right side of the disc (RHBH) is slower than the left side. Just as Rameka says.
Speed is inversely proportional to pressure. That means that as the air speed over the surface moves faster, the pressure lessens, but if it's slower, the pressure rises.
At the center
Speed over the top: slower
Speed over the bottom: faster
That creates lift at the center, by having more pressure on the bottom. It moves slower because there is more surface area to go over than the bottom.
Now keep that constant at the center, but now lets add in the sides.
The left side is going much much faster because of the spin of the disc + the velocity. Since it's going faster, the speed over the top is catching up to the speed over the bottom fractionally, causing less upward pressure. The bottom speed will increase, but the speed over the top is increasing faster. Also due to surface area (less to go over on the sides)
The right side is going slower than the center of the disc, and much much slower than the left side of the disc. It's spinning backward at that side in relation to the direction of the disc. Due to that the pressure is so slow over the top, that it starts pressing down on the disc, overcoming the lift on the wing. Just as the left side is going faster fractionally, the right side is going slower fractionally.
As the discs get faster, it takes more speed to get the differences in fractions to be to the point of downward pressure on the right side.
ive seen these diagrams and I like them, they make sense to me. But how exactly is hyzer flipping a disc any different than throwing a long turnover that doesnt recover? other than the results and its overall usefulness as a shot?
You are still taking the discs normal flight char. and manipulating them by throwing them beyond the requirements of a "normal" throw to achieve a desired effect.
Im not disputing your explanation of the physics btw, just confused as to how throwing a speed 7 (for example) disc like a TB with lets say 400 ft of power (for example) This disc needs to be thrown harder then its power requirement to get to 400, agreed? Assuming there is no wind, and elevation change and you arent doing anything out of the ordinary here, a flat smooth throw at its requirement is not going 400. So when you add power the you have to compensate both your arm speed and release angle. We happen to know that the TB will have to have the port wing at about 8 o clock or maybe more at release because at 400 ft of power the physics you describe take over and the disc will want dip the starboard wing. This is why youve compensated by already dropping the port wing. How is this not OAT?
Mind you im not talking about throwing a hyzer, im talking about a disc being overpowered in a hyzer release with the intent of the disc not hyzering, but flying straight midflight.
You are still taking the discs normal flight char. and manipulating them by throwing them beyond the requirements of a "normal" throw to achieve a desired effect.
Im not disputing your explanation of the physics btw, just confused as to how throwing a speed 7 (for example) disc like a TB with lets say 400 ft of power (for example) This disc needs to be thrown harder then its power requirement to get to 400, agreed? Assuming there is no wind, and elevation change and you arent doing anything out of the ordinary here, a flat smooth throw at its requirement is not going 400. So when you add power the you have to compensate both your arm speed and release angle. We happen to know that the TB will have to have the port wing at about 8 o clock or maybe more at release because at 400 ft of power the physics you describe take over and the disc will want dip the starboard wing. This is why youve compensated by already dropping the port wing. How is this not OAT?
Mind you im not talking about throwing a hyzer, im talking about a disc being overpowered in a hyzer release with the intent of the disc not hyzering, but flying straight midflight.
Think of the slow vs fast discs. You need to really get a boss up to speed for it to turn, but a slower disc turns easily. It's caused by air pressure and not OAT (but it can be caused by OAT).
I think we are agreeing here, im just not as educated about it as you obviously are.
i say spin can make a disc turn if its faster than the disc can handle, not necessarily meaning OAT.
You say air pressure, but its created by spin creating lift, ipso facto spin is not incorrect just right for the wrong reason.
Also im not implying that all lateral movement in a discs flight is due to OAT or too much spin. But it can be manipulated and controlled with most discs. IMO
I think we are agreeing here, im just not as educated about it as you obviously are.
i say spin can make a disc turn if its faster than the disc can handle, not necessarily meaning OAT.
You say air pressure, but its created by spin creating lift, ipso facto spin is not incorrect just right for the wrong reason.
Also im not implying that all lateral movement in a discs flight is due to OAT or too much spin. But it can be manipulated and controlled with most discs. IMO
roc lover has a point.
if i backswing low and finish high (my typical hyzer-flip stroke. no flutter.) an understable disc will flip despite having no oat (using garus definition of oat (thrower (as opposed to disc) oat as i call it))) on it. the disc flips because that is the physics of the disc, not because of oat as i define it (disc oat, wobble, flutter. whatever you want to call it).
if i backswing low and finish high (my typical hyzer-flip stroke. no flutter.) an understable disc will flip despite having no oat (using garus definition of oat (thrower (as opposed to disc) oat as i call it))) on it. the disc flips because that is the physics of the disc, not because of oat as i define it (disc oat, wobble, flutter. whatever you want to call it).
rocthecourse
* Ace Member *
Spin makes a disc more stable, like a top. Which is why forehand throwers need more stable discs since they usually have less spin.
tom8658
Birdie Member
Wrong, Here is the correct definition of turn.
Turn: When a disc is fired off, it carries a lot of speed in its initial path. This causes the disc to act like it ignores the friction of air for a short period of time. Because we can count air friction as having a negligible effect during this period, all that factors into the tendency of the disc is torque. The direction of torque on a RHBH throw is clockwise (if seen from above). This means that the disc has a speed about its center of gravity which is different from its speed at its port and starboard wing.
Figure 4: Dorsal view of disc, disc is flying up.
Because the velocity on the port (left) wing of the disc is higher, the air must flow faster over its dorsal surface on that side, causing its pressure to decrease. On the flipside, air is travelling much slower over the dorsal side of the starboard (right) wing, meaning the pressure is much higher. This pressure gradient causes the disc to tilt to the right, which is what we know as turn. Because turn is velocity-based, it is easy to see why it is dominant only during the initial part of a disc's flight. The other part is dominated by...
Found here:http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2249
Also wrong. What we call turn is more properly called negative roll (though that depends on convention) and is caused when the differential between the center of gravity and the center of lift creates a pitching moment (that is, a torque about the pitch axis - pushing the nose either up or down). Because the disc is a spin-stabilized wing, gyroscopic effects dictate that moments on an input axis normal to the angular momentum vector also cause motion on a mutually perpendicular output axis.
http://www.discwing.com/research/aerodynamics.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope
The only variables that truly matter to disc flight that are not the product of the aerodynamics of the disc itself are release angle, angular velocity / directional velocity (more properly, a quantity called the advance ratio), and and off-axis moments applied to the disc at release.
Rolling your wrist under -> spike hyzer because the moment applied along the roll axis forces the nose up. Rolling your wrist over similarly forces the nose down. Both affect the angle of release as well.
In this context, a hyzer flip is simply a throw with a high enough directional velocity to force a strongly nose down pitching moment, and the proper angular velocity to avoid ultra-stability (spin too high - too stable), and turn-and-burn (spin too low - not stable enough).
Here's where I'm stuck - wobble causes turn-and-burn, but why? Using the above model, the effect should be nothing more than a sequence of pitches with the same magnitude but opposite direction, and not actually affect the flight, unless the transient characteristics as the disc leave the hand dominate its later motion...
Maybe it's correlation and not causation, because putter flutter doesn't seem to result in under-stability inside the circle, so maybe wobble is just something that you see when you don't apply enough spin for the amount of armspeed (in dg terms), not something that actually causes under stable characteristics.
tom8658
Birdie Member
Spin does not create lift. Directional velocity creates lift. Spin stabilizes the disc.
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