Offseason training for power

[sidewinder22]

DamonRipper pretty much nailed it, you really don't want to focus on one thing unless you have a severe deficiency somewhere. Your muscles are synergistic during a throw, i.e. if you focus on your triceps without the biceps you run higher risk of hyperextending your elbow. Best to workout everything. I wish Christian Sandstrom still had that video up on youtube where he was competing in Mr. Fitness competitions - guy is built like an NFL linebacker(big muscles don't mean you don't have flexibility) and went undefeated in distance competition for a whole decade!

IMO people would benefit a lot from taking dance lessons working on balance and rhythm for that nice centered quick pirouette. Also figure skating or hockey or tennis are great sports to cross train, your feet in disc golf should move almost just like you have skates on. Cross train - but don't do cross fit.

 

[VictorB]

Cross train - but don't do cross fit.

Poor advice.

Crossfit is fine as a general strength/conditioning plan, if you're already experienced with barbell movements. If you aren't, I wouldn't recommend it right off the bat since there are a lot of movement patterns to learn. That being said, there's nothing inherently wrong with diversifying your movements as they do in most crossfit programs. There is a lot of focus on bodyweight movements, as well as flexibility. Right up the alley of anyone who is looking to just get in better physical shape.

 

[Tepi]

Poor advice.

Crossfit is fine as a general strength/conditioning plan, if you're already experienced with barbell movements. If you aren't, I wouldn't recommend it right off the bat since there are a lot of movement patterns to learn. That being said, there's nothing inherently wrong with diversifying your movements as they do in most crossfit programs. There is a lot of focus on bodyweight movements, as well as flexibility. Right up the alley of anyone who is looking to just get in better physical shape.

Personally never done crossfit, but from my understanding the concept is based around big movements like clean and jerk, snatch, deadlift etc. Great movements for building strenght, especially explosive strenght. However crossfit training seem to use those in order to fatigue your body and build lactic acid in muscles, which in my opinion doesn't do any good when your goal is to get those fast muscle fibers activated. Also always thought it's insane to do movements that require good technique when you haven't recovered from last set, risk for injury rises highly.

I don't know if the concept has changed, but that's how it was back when I did some lifting to support skating.

 

[VictorB]

It is designed to build lactic acid resistance (ie improving functional work capacity)

I don't necessarily agree with how they utilize olympic movements, but at the same time you're not *required* to do those kinds of things for setting a fast time. It doesn't have to be a competitive sport in terms of time unless you make it one. There's a lot more benefit from the diversity of movements and conditioning involved than there is risk of injury from the more technique based lifts, imo.

Being a former powerlifter, I'd almost certainly recommend a crossfit based program over a powerlifting program, in regard to gaining benefit for disc golf.

 

[RFrance]

...working on balance and rhythm for that nice centered quick pirouette.

How about the algility ladder drills?

 

[sidewinder22]

Poor advice.

Crossfit is fine as a general strength/conditioning plan, if you're already experienced with barbell movements. If you aren't, I wouldn't recommend it right off the bat since there are a lot of movement patterns to learn. That being said, there's nothing inherently wrong with diversifying your movements as they do in most crossfit programs. There is a lot of focus on bodyweight movements, as well as flexibility. Right up the alley of anyone who is looking to just get in better physical shape.

My Physical Therapist says that Crossfit keeps him in business. I know too many people that have been injured in Crossfit and many of them were NCAA D1 athletes I used to train with.

https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/the-great-injury-debate-is-crossfit-dangerous-we-may-never-know
This Is Not a "CrossFit is Dangerous" White Paper

That point needs to be made clear. Full disclaimer: I kip my pull ups and muscle ups, I do high rep Olympic lifts, and I bound off my box jumps. However, I do this for sport. My goals are not fitness. My goals are sport, and as such, I need to make a choice that exposure to the possibility of injury is a very real thing.

But 99% of people who participate in CrossFit are not doing this for sport. They are doing it to get fit. At the gym where I train, Cincinnati Strength and Conditioning, the classes are specifically geared toward those wishing to be fit, not those wishing to compete. Ergo, box jumps are always step-down-mandatory, and the strict pull ups outnumber the kipping three-to-one in any given month of programming. And very, very little of the daily class programming involves competing against other members in a timed metcon.

The problem is that if you look around at any given CrossFit box on any given day, you will begin to notice a pattern. And that pattern is injury. Don't believe me? Take an inventory at your box. In the last year, how many of the people with whom you regularly "throw down" have sustained or currently have an injury? Additionally, factor in those people you don't see anymore. Where did they go? Boredom? P90X? Or are they sitting out a shoulder injury? I know many people who have had shoulder surgery, and many more who have shoulder problems.

It is a conversation we simply must have. Whether there is a specific causation or merely coincidental correlation, there is a preponderance of injury. If you read this peer-reviewed paper, which appears to be the first of its kind, you will see that there is a reported 73% injury rate in CrossFit. That's too high. (You can read the rebuttal to this study here where the author takes issue with the data collection method and findings.)

But let's give that 73% the benefit of the doubt and trim it all the way down to 51%. If the likelihood of getting injured doing CrossFit is 51%, then statistically, you are more likely to get injured than you are to get fit. And that, my friends, is the exact opposite of why we're all supposed to be doing this.

http://journals.humankinetics.com/doi/pdf/10.1123/jsr.2016-0040
Both Hak and Weisenthal reported a high incidence of shoulder injuries (31.8% and 25% respectively) from CrossFit training. The Olympic-style lifts that are inherent to CrossFit require the shoulders to move beyond their usual physiologic range of motion (e.g. kipping pull-up). Another potential contributor to CrossFit-related injuries in general and shoulder injuries in particular, is muscular fatigue due to high number of repetitions performed during CrossFit sessions. Muscular fatigue may have particularly deleterious effects on the glenohumeral joint, since congruency of this joint is dependent on sustained muscular activation. Muscular fatigue may also contribute to loss of proper exercise technique and resultant injury.

The injury rates with CrossFit reported by Hak were markedly higher than those reported by Grier and Weisenthal. It is unclear why the injury rate was higher in the Hak study, although differences in sample size and/or response bias may explain some of the disparity between these studies. Differences in CrossFit experience between the reviewed studies may also explain some of the disparities in injury rates. Weisenthal surveyed only those claiming to be "athlete-level" CrossFit participants, while Grier surveyed military recruits who may have had more experience with high intensity training. In contrast Hak collected data on active participants of any level of participation in CrossFit. Therefore, the high level of previous training by respondents in the Weisenthal and Grier studies could account for the lower injury rates when compared to the Hak.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

Yoga, combat tai-chi. I am 100% serious, balance, flexibility, coordination, and timing. Also will work your muscles more than enough.

 

[ClydesdaleDan]

My Physical Therapist says that Crossfit keeps him in business. I know too many people that have been injured in Crossfit and many of them were NCAA D1 athletes I used to train with.

I think the main issue with crossfit is that individual movements are often not practiced enough under controlled conditions to develop proper mechanics before they are taken to failure. Olympic lifts can be done without the increased injury rate seen in crossfit. The difference is that Olympic weightlifters spend years practicing and perfecting their technique for each movement under submaximal load and fatigue.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[AByrd]

I would think that plyometric jumps...depth jumps, in particular, would be good for pushing off the back leg. Also, slideboard work should help.

Depth Jumps:

Slideboard:

 

[VictorB]

My Physical Therapist says that Crossfit keeps him in business. I know too many people that have been injured in Crossfit and many of them were NCAA D1 athletes I used to train with.

So you're telling me that physical exertion causes injuries and keeps patients in physical therapy?

Tell me how that's different from other high intensity sports. :\ Or, would you like to hear about the injuries I worked through in my 3 years seriously powerlifting?

High intensity competitive sports will cause injuries, period. Doesn't matter who you are. We used to half joke that powerlifting was a hobby between injuries. The key to crossfit is not to approach it from the weird time based tracking they have, and work at a reasonable pace. Most people aren't that smart though.

 

[NegaSnapples]

So you're telling me that physical exertion causes injuries and keeps patients in physical therapy?

Tell me how that's different from other high intensity sports. :\ Or, would you like to hear about the injuries I worked through in my 3 years seriously powerlifting?

High intensity competitive sports will cause injuries, period. Doesn't matter who you are. We used to half joke that powerlifting was a hobby between injuries. The key to crossfit is not to approach it from the weird time based tracking they have, and work at a reasonable pace. Most people aren't that smart though.

I'm not sure what you consider to be "high intensity competitive sports". You've only mentioned power lifting (which I can't speak to at all) and crossfit.

I've played soccer at a high level for years. I've played ultimate at a very high level for years. Funny enough, the guy on my team who does crossfit is always injured. I've only ever had two injuries. Both were because of contact made by another player.

I don't think physical exertion automatically causes injury. If you're well balanced, flexible, and have a good cardio routine, I think injury can be avoided.

 

[sidewinder22]

So you're telling me that physical exertion causes injuries and keeps patients in physical therapy?

No, my PT is referring to the constant influx of new patients from crossfit, more so than from other sports/exercise. If they continue in crossfit after rehab, that might keep patients in PT and repeat the process, but most wisely move on to a safer form of exercise after their experience.

Tell me how that's different from other high intensity sports. :\ Or, would you like to hear about the injuries I worked through in my 3 years seriously powerlifting?

High intensity competitive sports will cause injuries, period. Doesn't matter who you are. We used to half joke that powerlifting was a hobby between injuries. The key to crossfit is not to approach it from the weird time based tracking they have, and work at a reasonable pace. Most people aren't that smart though.

Most people aren't high level athletes with a decent background for crossfit, and as I said, I know several former NCAA D1 athletes that have been injured in crossfit. Most people are ignorant about crossfit and think that it is a relatively safe form exercise. It sounds like you know the risks better than most.

 

[zj1002]

Ride a bike. Do push-ups and body weight stuff. Eat clean. That is literally all you need for disc golf aside from field/course practice.

The other thing a lot of people don't realize is that when you get 450ft level line drive power, your accuracy also improves dramatically. This isn't from strength training or anything like that. This is purely from expert level mechanics and timing. Keep your legs healthy, mentally understand the concepts, and the rest is just repetitions.

 

[NegaSnapples]

Ride a bike. Do push-ups and body weight stuff. Eat clean. That is literally all you need for disc golf aside from field/course practice.

The other thing a lot of people don't realize is that when you get 450ft level line drive power, your accuracy also improves dramatically. This isn't from strength training or anything like that. This is purely from expert level mechanics and timing. Keep your legs healthy, mentally understand the concepts, and the rest is just repetitions.

Well put. I would just add to stretch, stretch, stretch. Flexibility is a huge benefit in any sport you're participating in. Disc golf is no exception. It will help with distance and injury prevention.

 

[VictorB]

I'm not sure what you consider to be "high intensity competitive sports". You've only mentioned power lifting (which I can't speak to at all) and crossfit.

Mainly things where you're pushing the physical limits of what the human body can do/sustain.

Lots of very focused, ultra-repetitive movements - running, jumping, weightlifting, throwing, gymnastics, etc. Or, lots of sustained physical punishment, like football, wrestling, boxing, mma, etc.

 

[NegaSnapples]

Mainly things where you're pushing the physical limits of what the human body can do/sustain.

Lots of very focused, ultra-repetitive movements - running, jumping, weightlifting, throwing, gymnastics, etc. Or, lots of sustained physical punishment, like football, wrestling, boxing, mma, etc.

Remove contact sports though. Injury is different in those compared to weightlifting, crossfit, or whatever else.

I'm confused where you stand though. Do you recommend crossfit as a smart option of becoming better at disc golf? Do you think it's a good way to train for anything? Or is it only useful if you wish to compete in...well... crossfit competitions or whatever..?

 

[NegaSnapples]

Oh and @Victor let me clear one thing up...

You say injury is to be expected from any "high-intensity sport".

You state that they WILL cause injury at some point, it's the nature of them.

You also recommend crossfit as being a good option to train for DG.

Why would someone do something that risks injury as a training option for disc golf?

I'm utterly confused.

 

[VictorB]

Why would someone do something that risks injury as a training option for disc golf?

I'm utterly confused.

Disc golf itself risks injury (repetitive, focused motion, even more so because it's not a balanced movement) what's your point?

Being stronger is never a bad thing. It will improve overall quality of life. If someone isn't going to push themselves to the limit doing crossfit workouts (ie reducing weight in complex movements, and not pushing to do as fast as possible without proper rest between sets) they would be fine for any disc golfer that wants to improve their general fitness. It doesn't have to be gung ho balls to the wall ultimate warrior workouts every time you're in there.

Also, you'll note that I never said that crossfit would make you better at disc golf. I've maintained the position that being stronger will help improve quality of life and it should not be a focus to use weights to get better at golfing.

 

[NegaSnapples]

Disc golf itself risks injury (repetitive, focused motion) what's your point?

Being stronger is never a bad thing. It will improve overall quality of life. If someone isn't going to push themselves to the limit doing crossfit workouts (ie reducing weight in complex movements, and not pushing to do as fast as possible without proper rest between sets) they would be fine for any disc golfer that wants to improve their general fitness. It doesn't have to be gung ho balls to the wall ultimate warrior workouts every time you're in there.

My point is why would you not just do a normal workout routine? Do some light lifting, plyometrics, swimming...

Eagle is built like a beanpole and can out throw everyone in this forum. I don't think strength is a leading factor in throwing distance...

I guess I'm just wondering why it would be recommended to do something that has such a high incidence of injury as a "training" for something else... I just don't see it as being good advice for someone asking about an offseason training regimen.

The injury rate in CrossFit was approximately 20% according to this study...

"CrossFit is emerging as a popular form of competitive
exercise. As participation in CrossFit continues to expand,
injuries associated with involvement will likely grow commensurately.
Sports medicine physicians should have an
awareness of the elements of this form of exercise and be
prepared to treat the various patterns of injury incurred
by its athletes. Injury rates in CrossFit are comparable
with established injury rates for other recreational or competitive
athletes, with an injury profile resembling that of
gymnasts, Olympic weight lifters, and power lifters."

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2325967114531177

 

[SaROCaM]

Oh and @Victor let me clear one thing up...

You say injury is to be expected from any "high-intensity sport".

You state that they WILL cause injury at some point, it's the nature of them.

You also recommend crossfit as being a good option to train for DG.

Why would someone do something that risks injury as a training option for disc golf?

I'm utterly confused.

My point is why would you not just do a normal workout routine? Do some light lifting, plyometrics, swimming...

Eagle is built like a beanpole and can out throw everyone in this forum. I don't think strength is a leading factor in throwing distance...

I guess I'm just wondering why it would be recommended to do something that has such a high incidence of injury as a "training" for something else... I just don't see it as being good advice for someone asking about an offseason training regimen.

The injury rate in CrossFit was approximately 20% according to this study...

"CrossFit is emerging as a popular form of competitive
exercise. As participation in CrossFit continues to expand,
injuries associated with involvement will likely grow commensurately.
Sports medicine physicians should have an
awareness of the elements of this form of exercise and be
prepared to treat the various patterns of injury incurred
by its athletes. Injury rates in CrossFit are comparable
with established injury rates for other recreational or competitive
athletes, with an injury profile resembling that of
gymnasts, Olympic weight lifters, and power lifters."

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2325967114531177

This is a commonly overlooked distinction: crossfit training vs. crossfit as a sport. Crossfit training can be scaled down to fit an individual's current level of ability. Crossfit as a sport introduces more of the competition/ego-stroking conditions that heighten the probability of injury.

Eagle may be built like a beanpole, but strength does not equal size. There is some correlation between strength and size, but there are many examples of those who are strong that don't "look" strong. Size is gained in the kitchen/at the table. Though the way he struggled with pushups in his putting video, he likely isn't too strong.

That said, he (and many others) are good examples of how much good form matters. Now if he could keep elite form/technique while adding strength, would he throw even farther? Also, strength helps keep you resilient and minimizes injury/the effect of injury. Less time injured = more time playing and working on your game.

There's the idea that goes something like this: all your physical abilities (speed, power, flexibility, endurance, etc.) are like buckets, but strength is the biggest bucket that makes all the other buckets easier to fill. If you are stronger, then your "normal workout routine" becomes more effective and productive.

Is getting stronger the best way to get better at disc golf? No. But will getting stronger benefit you? Yes.