Par 4s and 5s

[J-Man]

Being an old schooler I have watched over the decades as DG has become a birdie or die par 3 world. I'd love to see the reaction of stick golfers if they went to their favorite course and that old par 5, 600+ yard hole was now a par 3. Anyway a new course just opened in North Plains outside Portland, OR with 2 holes that, imho, should be par 4, yet they are not. The question I am throwing out here is: under what circumstances should a hole become a legitimate par 4 or par 5?

 

[krazybronco]

to me a hole is a par 4-5 is when you make par most of the time and only birdie it once or twice because you hit that magic line.

say a hole is 400 ft but wide open should be a par 3 but take the same hole add quiet a few trees and then its a par 4

 

[MDR_3000]

it all depends really..distance + turns in the fairway + hazards along the way all play a role on the par a hole gets.

 

[Will Aubrey]

I've seen Chuck Kennedy talk about the rule of thirds and that makes sense to me. Players at the skill level a course is designed for should get birdie 1/3 of the time, par 1/3 of the time, and bogey 1/3 of the time.

 

[some call me...tim?]

hehe, when I first moved up here, I was playing one of my first rounds at my now home course, which is significantly tougher than my old one was. The guy I asked to show me around turned out to be kind of an oddball...I tried to start conversations, and he'd just give short replies and walk on in silence. One of the few times he said more than two words was when I asked if all the holes were par 3. He kind of snorted and said "Have you ever played a disc golf hole that wasn't par 3?" I told him I hadn't, but that I knew they existed in other parts of the country. Then he was like "ALL disc golf holes are par 3 because of all the stoners. They can't keep track of their scores if they have different pars, so all disc golf holes are par 3, no matter what." (I should note that he had jaundiced skin and a significant beer gut).

I definitely agree that there should be more par 4 and 5 (or even 6) holes out there, and labeled as such. But, when it all comes down to it, it's the total number of strokes that really matters. I don't know if you've ever made it up to play SeaTac before, J-Man, but it's easily the toughest course in the greater Seattle area. All the holes there are technically par 3, but realistically, I'd say its a par 61 course. Even with the adjusted par, its tough--a +7 playing as par 3s is a totally respectable score.

 

[J-Man]

Tim, that's the answer I get all the time too, "it's easier math if they are all 3s." Well that's just dumb, could you imagine the response if at a local country club all the golfers showed up one morning and were told all the pars were now 3s because the math is easier? A Burger King no longer selling the Whopper moment I'm sure. Anyway, I realize that what it comes down to is the final number of strokes on the card at the end of the day, and as it should be, but my point is that when a hole is a legit par 4 or 5 it changes the approach to playing the hole. Your T shot doesn't have to park the basket, but it does NEED to set up that next shot. When holes play like this your game becomes about being able to hit a spot within the hole to set up your approach to the basket. That style of play adds depth to the hole, the course, the game, and ultimately your throwing skills. You guys would not believe the hornets nest this question stirred up here in PDX, un-freaking-believable. One guy here said that the PDGA does have criteria for par 4s and 5s, but no one seems to be able to communicate that data, any insight from you guys would be great as usual. Thanks, J

 

[Eric O]

J-Man,

I also don't buy the argument that everything is a par 3 for ease of scoring. I'm familiar with Horning's Hideout, so I know the holes you are referring to. I'd say if you were going to set accurate par on these two holes that 13 is on the fence but leaning toward a tough par 3. I witnessed it being 3'd a couple times already in just two rounds of play, by players that are probably middle of the pack AM1. Hole18 is what? 680ft? Teeing off uphill around a mando, then going long steep down the hill with one of the best Disc Golf hazards I've ever seen (marsh) at the bottom protecting the pin. Um, that is probably a par 4 hole by any realistic standard.

By the way, check back on the ODSA thread on Hornings. I remembered an interesting discussion on how to set pars that I dug up with the search.

 

[roman1]

Hole 18 at one of the local courses here is 845ft. The fairway is about 20-25ft wide. There is a line of trees running the entire length of the hole on the right side of the fairway, and fairly thick prairie grass rough on the left. The first third of the hole is downhill, the other two thirds goes back uphill. At the bottom to the left of the fairway is a marsh. You basically have to make sure your drives end up on the fairway every time. You go anywhere to the right, and you're in the woods. You go left, and you are going to be looking for your disc for quite a while in the tall grass, or end up wading through the marsh if your first drive hooks left.

They play it as a par 5 when they have the tournaments here.

 

[Will Aubrey]

Here is the PDGA suggested standard.

http://www.pdga.com/documents/PublicPar.pdf

 

[stoneman]

I think it is stupid to just mandatorily call all holes a par 3. Some holes should really be par 2, and there are some that NEED to be par 4, or maybe above. Come to my home course. It's almost 1000' to the basket. You shoot off one hill, across to antother. The basket is on the downside of another hill, not visible. There is a sight that goes up from the basket, so that you can see the placement even when you can't see the basket. I seriously doubt that even a very high percentage of pros are going to birdie that hole....and we have harder holes in abundance. When I play, wether alone, or during leageus, I count the total # of strokes, and compare that to what the course PAR

 

[Decoy]

everything at my local course is marked "pro par x" and "par x". I'm not sure if it's like this everywhere, but when we play competitive we always decide which way we will keep score.

I thought everyone just played par 3's to keep track of total strokes. if we are feeling a little down on our game, we'll play regular pars and try to hit 21 under lolol. Big negative numbers always fix a damaged ego, but more often than not we play all par 3's

11 under par (using the regular pars) is even playing all par 3's at Woodlawn in Moorhead MN. The courses around here are pretty easy tho, heard from one of the local league players that they are setting up a champ course, 27 holes and hard as !~#$ compared to what we got now. can't wait

 

[garublador1]

The question I am throwing out here is: under what circumstances should a hole become a legitimate par 4 or par 5?

My opinion is that what people say par is for a certain hole doesn't necessarily mean much. I think the par for the hole is determined by the scoring distribution, not by what it's labled.

 

[EBK357]

we call them pro par and public par.

 

[Takeichi]

par 4's should be par 4s if you can't by any means make it by the basket in 1 shot
Par 5's are just really really long

 

[cojsmith08]

Why not just say that you shot a "57" instead of arguing about par?

 

[sweeper]

Math sucks.
Numbers suck.
They make my head hurt.

 

[EBK357]

Why not just say that you shot a "57" instead of arguing about par?

who says were arguing???

 

[Cgkdisc]

Why not just say that you shot a "57" instead of arguing about par?

It doesn't matter for recreational play. But as soon as you're tracking performance or in competition it matters. First, it's in the rulebook that you get par+4 for each hole if you're late. There have been times when a person late to start on a 1000 ft hole got a better score than everyone in their group with a "par+4" of 7 instead of probably 9 because par wasn't set properly at maybe 5.

If a course has different pin placements and/or tees, having appropriate pars allows one to compare scores and track records for different layouts. If multiple pools are playing different courses in an event, over/under the correct pars can tell who's doing better before the pools are reshuffled by score. There are several places that do handicap leagues and some use match play. Having appropriate pars allows that process to work better.

 

[justinrich]

+1

 

[bortimus]

I would like to see more reachable par 4s in disc golf. Ball golf has driveable par 4s with super rough/water/tricky greens/other hazards surrounding the green to severely punish those who take the risk but don't pull off the shot. Generally these holes are relatively easy to par for the conservative player who swallows their pride and lays up, but offer a hero route from the tee for players willing to go for it to make birdie or eagle. They can bring bogey into play if setup correctly. If these holes are well designed, they break the mold of "if you can reach the basket with one shot, it is a par 3"