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Par Talk

Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?

  • A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .
One thing I've noticed about par is par also somewhat dictates the way someone will play a hole.

I truly think that tweener holes actually are advantaged in the score separation department from playing them as the lower pars.

Example:

A 450 foot tightly wooded hole.

Call it a par 4 and I think more people are laying back off the tee. "It's a two shot hole" they think and then grab a midrange or a putter.

Call it a par 3 and I think more people are playing aggressively. "Well, it's a par 3. I must birdie everything, this is disc golf."

10 players throw mids/ putters and your scoring likely is:

2's - 0
3's - 6
4's - 3
5+ - 1

10 players throw aggressive drivers off the tee:

2s - 1
3's - 4
4's - 3
5+ - 2

Just an opinion...
 
Was the definition of PAR invented in golf with the understanding that an "expert" is really like a local pro (100 rated guy), or a PGA tour player?
USGA handicap system used top amateur scores as the basis for their handicap system which defines scratch play. Interestingly, a scratch handicapper averages higher than scratch scores because the USGA system only uses your 10 best out of your most recent 20 rounds in the calculation.
 
Naples is right and I have thought about that with this discussion. Maybe it has not always been that way (people hit farther now). but there are a good amount of PAR 5s on the PGA tour where the expected score is 4 - by the touring players, who knows what the members of the golf course expect to get. I just don't know if that's the expected score of a PGA pro, or an "expert". When we say 1000 rated player we are not talking about the top players in the game. Was the definition of PAR invented in golf with the understanding that an "expert" is really like a local pro (100 rated guy), or a PGA tour player?

I would say the equivalent to PGA Tour Pro is 1020 and above.

1000 rated guys are like the Web.Com Tour guys. Still amazing, but aren't winning National Tour events.
 
I have ever to correct sorne. Golf was created by The Great Took when he knocked the head off the Goblin King and it went down a rabbit's hole. He won the battle too.
 
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Since we are discussing how to define "par," I have done a short bit of cursory digging into the etymology of some terms to see how they came to mean what they do now, and I found the results interesting enough to share.

First, let's look at "golf." The earliest mention of people playing a game like golf dates all the way back to the 11th century. Most references are to something called "kolf" (or "colf") which essentially means "stick," "club," or "bat." These references indicate using a stick of some sort to hit a ball towards a target, but they are very unspecific. The modern game of golf is an invention of the Scots. The earliest Scottish reference to gowf is from the 15th century, but the oldest rules we have are from 1744.

I could not find the history of using the term "scratch." It probably comes about by defining a starting line (a metaphoric scratch-in-the-ground to define a baseline of play), or maybe it refers to a tee-line (a "scratch golfer" would be able to reach the hole from the scratch-line.)

The term "par" is a derivate from the Latin "par, paris" (meaning "equal" or "like"); even after the fall of the Latins, "par" was still used colloquially. It was not used to describe golf scores until the end of the 19th century. Around the same time, there was another term being used to describe "scratch" play: bogey. A bogey score was the score of a phantom-player (a bogeyman, you might say.) The abstract goal of golf was to beat the bogeyman.

In the end, though, "par" became the term to describe playing scratch. I found no evidence, but I suspect the reason for this is that scoring under-par was very hard. People did not like losing over and over to the bogeyman, so they made him play one stroke worse.

A recurring point in this thread has been the idea that people only want every hole to be birdie-able to stroke their own egos. If my above theory has some truth to it, then it means (funnily enough) that that the modern definition of par and bogey, which some want to hold on so fast to, is the result of ego. This is not verifiable, of course, but remains amusing to consider.

Using the term "birdie" to describe scoring under-par did not seem to start happening until the mid-20th century. I could not find where it came from (apart from a couple legends,) but I think I can make a reasonable guess. As has been stated, birdies in golf are hard. I suspect that in the past they were even harder, but they started to become somewhat more commonplace as the tools we used evolved: better clubs, better balls, more manicured courses, more shared techniques. As under-pars started to become more and more common, people in different areas started to call them different things. Someone decided to call theirs a birdie, and other people liked it so much that the name spread (let's be honest, "birdie" is a really fun name.)

There are many things you can infer from all this information. The most important conclusion to me, though, is that words can change meaning. Disc golf involves zero clubs (except for the ones I throw into trees to get my discs down because I suck,) yet we still call it golf.

Trying to strictly follow the meaning of words is a bit of fool's errand. The proper course of action is to determine the best, most reasonable, most practically useful way to track scoring and go from there.

To me, I don't care about how the bogey-man/par-man is doing. I care about what the best possible score is on a hole and how close I was to it. My struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the trees, against the rocks, against the whims of this windy world and against the physical forces of gravity in the disc golf realms.

The base of the discussion is, does par have value and should it? The use of history, precedent and bg notwithstanding, does par have value as we use it? Every event, every course, and every participant uses it so clearly we think it is important. As David has defined it, it is one stroke above what an expert player is expected to score on a hole. Speaking of silly. What is the value of that? Personally, I like 101. That is one point above what my kid would get if he got a perfect score on his math test. I also like eight. One point above the score you get on a touchdown, if you make the extra point. I also like two. One point above what you get if you hit a solo home run.

We are using par extensively, but in a very silly way.
 
One thing I've noticed about par is par also somewhat dictates the way someone will play a hole.

.....

People may change the way they approach a hole based on the par assigned to it.....but if they do, they're fools. If anyone playing with me as done so, they haven't been a big enough fool to tell me.

If top-level pros are doing it, I'm speechless. (And longtime forum users know how rare that is).
 
Naples is right and I have thought about that with this discussion. Maybe it has not always been that way (people hit farther now). but there are a good amount of PAR 5s on the PGA tour where the expected score is 4 - by the touring players, who knows what the members of the golf course expect to get. I just don't know if that's the expected score of a PGA pro, or an "expert". When we say 1000 rated player we are not talking about the top players in the game. Was the definition of PAR invented in golf with the understanding that an "expert" is really like a local pro (100 rated guy), or a PGA tour player?

I looked through those examples and about a dozen other event results. There aren't many such holes.

Some are 50/50 holes---hey, we discussed how bad 50/50 holes were, a few hundred posts back---but I wouldn't say we expect someone to do something that only happens 50% of the time, or a little more.

Only a few have birdies so frequent that it could be said to be expected.
 
Not everyone. Because of some forward-thinking sophisticated TDs, we are at the point where the more attention a tournament gets, the better the par is.

See what happens when you speak in absolutes, it makes you look absolutely foolish.

I should add, my general impression is that we are on a path. Par gets better, as events and players get better. In all likelihood, we will end up at a good place. But I'd hate to get caught out along the way by something like Sports Center, who won't say, "they're on a path."

Also, I think what Steve is doing is good. I know there will be some disagreement, but having a base for discussions and calculations brings points of information and knowledge together. While I hate Jussie's terminology, the Bullseye and the other metrics that he and the Pro Tour have introduced are really good. Fans and players do such things. They find ways to analyze what players are doing and how it brings value. Someday, someone is going to look back and say, Steve got it right. Queue the red cheeks.
 
How do they play when par is 2?

Yes, it is a good point.

It reinforces what David already said, if par dictates how someone plays a hole they are a fool.

This eliminates the "option" to play differently based on par, almost as if no par was set.

To answer your question; their play would differ based on the difficulty of the hole, their skill-set, and what they expect from the competition. The way they play could also change based on how far into a tournament they are, or where they are in the tourney standings.

Well, this is how I would play that hole, or any other hole. So, I guess I couldn't say for sure how someone who normally changes their play because of par would play it.

Edit: I want to reiterate that having accurate par would help with "and what they expect from the competition" part of what I said.
 
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USGA handicap system used top amateur scores as the basis for their handicap system which defines scratch play. Interestingly, a scratch handicapper averages higher than scratch scores because the USGA system only uses your 10 best out of your most recent 20 rounds in the calculation.

The best 10 of 20 is used for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that you do not want high scores that are attributable to bad weather or other difficult conditions averaged in. Disc golf doesn't have to worry about this because rating is based off performance against your peers, rather than performance against the course.

The other reason is to remove fluke bad rounds or intentional sandbagging rounds. They actually go a step further to prevent sandbagging by more heavily weighting good tournament scores.

All in all it does about as good a job as you can rating a player, without using a system like Disc golf that compares your performance to your peers playing the same course the same day.
 
Of course, the honest answer to Steve's question is that, if anyone labels a hole Par 2, players will play it exactly the same as they did when it was labeled Par 3.
 
What if calling a hole Par 2 adds so much pressure that the scoring on it increases to where it should be called a par 3 again? ;)

Then the pressure would be off and it would go back to par 2. So, we would have an oscillating system: Par is 3 when it is labeled 2, and 2 when it is labeled 3.
 
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