PAR

[Terry C]

Really the total number of throws is all that matters.

correct, give this man a dollar.

I am not sure if Climo has the arm for it, but I think it is possible for those other guys to get a 3 maybe 1 out of 10 tries, but it is a little comical that you take one part of the definition and highlight it, but ignore the other part about taking 2 throws to hole out (thereby making it a par 4). By your logic here anything under 500' should then be a par-2.

Well this will be the end of this wonderfully entertaining conversation were having but to reply to the previous post, I say this...

huh?? you lost me there with 2 holes to hole out, making it a par 4 essentially making it a par 2???

#1. A 500 foot hole is 99.9% of the time marked as a par 3.

#2. If the "green" that you are referring to for disc golf is considered "the circle" that is commonly talked about by everyone then it doesn't take 2 putts to make that shot, a 2 shot putt definitely is not the standard. Pros and even average amateurs for that matter make that shot within the circle consistently. I get mad at myself if I miss a shot within the circle/green because it shouldn't happen. A 2 shot putt would be a bad putt for me or any of the guys I play with.

#3. I too found it comical that you were quoting a ball golf websites definitions to make a point about disc golfs meaning of par. I guess you could equate throwing darts at a dartboard to firing a rifle at a target on a shooting range too and say they are the same sport with the same rules and standards because they both have a projectile going at a target. Disc golf and ball golf are different games with different standards, different rules, different layouts, different equipment, just simply different.

#4. Par is 3

 

[Terry C]

Consider a hole that is an L shape followed by another L shape - heavily wooded so no shortcuts are possible with generous 40' wide fairways. 250' to a right angle bend, another 250' to a right angle bend, followed by another 250' to the basket. What would an expert player be expected to shoot on that hole?

That kind of hole sounds ridiculously hard, really frustrating and not fun at all to me. A player who was anything less then a top professional would get a 10 by the sounds of that. I guess if somebody created a wacky hole like that then I could see it being par 4 or 5, but thats taking things to an extreme just to make a point.:\

I played a horrible course layed out terribly with several holes like that once. It was created by a bunch of kids that had no idea what they were doing and it sucked to play. Myself and the group I went with all vowed none of us would ever return and we haven't.

 

[biscoe]

terry- what do you consider the word par to signify in relation to a golf hole? is it a shorthand way of keeping score? does it represent the number of strokes a given skill level would be expected to score on a hole with errorless play? is it something some moron just put on a sign for his own edification?

imo you guys are debating semantics more than anything else.

 

[Terry C]

terry- what do you consider the word par to signify in relation to a golf hole? is it a shorthand way of keeping score? does it represent the number of strokes a given skill level would be expected to score on a hole with errorless play? is it something some moron just put on a sign for his own edification?

imo you guys are debating semantics more than anything else.

Yeah biscoe, first of all thank you for not typing me an angry post that instigates an argument like some others ive gotten. Second, Im done debating this any more because Ive said my thoughts on this and sometimes one has to agree to disagree. If one watches two people arguing from a far then it is hard to tell who the fool is. I think 99% of the time a disc golf hole should be designed and played as a par 3. I cant say 100% of the time because there are always exceptions like a hole that would make a figure eight and then you throw over a 350 foot wide pond and then zig-zag through trees and make a 200 foot putt through a tunnel to the basket or something wacky like that.

In my opinion par is the number of strokes a given skill level would be expected to score on a hole with errorless play like you said, but also my opinion is that there should be no par 4's and par 5's. Disc golf holes shouldnt be so long and difficult that they would require a profesional to average 4 or 5 strokes because then that means that an amateur can expect to get a 7 or maybe 8 strokes on that hole and thats not a well designed disc golf hole in my opinion. Thats all Im trying to say. Im not angry at anyone or anything I just have my opinion, that par should be 3.

I think its funny that Im getting a bunch of haters jumping on me about making a simple statement like par is 3. I have been playing for over 15 years and so what makes these guys right and me wrong? Because my opinion is different from theirs so Im wrong? How so? I think if you asked anybody I disc with then the people hyping up par 4's and 5's would be called wrong. RELAX and take bubble baths or something, lol

 

[Cgkdisc]

For rec play, your opinion is in line with the maybe 50-100 times more rec players than PDGA members who are fine calling everything par 3. So, no problem. You significantly outnumber us.

You are not correct from a professional standpoint because those in authority with the PDGA overseeing the sport regarding course design and standards say so. Competitive players within it mostly agree there are pars higher than 3. In fact, it's been in the rules of the sport for tournament play for more than 20 years.

Hopefully, you'll get the chance to visit Highbridge to see what courses with legitimate higher pars are all about. The pars from each set of tees are set for the intended skill level. Top rated Blueberry Hill has the L shaped hole mentioned earlier (#16) with a break to the right then a break to the left when the basket is in the long position and people seem to like its quirkiness. With skillful play, it can be birdied with a satisfying 4. Blue level par on the course ranges from 58-63 depending on where the pins are set.

Many of the players in southern Wisconsin including tourney players grew up on mostly par 3 courses. I saw angry posts online back when Highbridge first went in and Highbridge got critical emails from many of them after they played there due to the longer par 4 & 5 holes. I remember one player was incensed that some holes were so long. He said he's watched Barry Schultz play and if Barry could not birdie (2) them, the design was all wrong. :wall:

 

[culinarywiz]

I play all 3's, but I'm ready to start playing course par's again.

 

[Dave242]

I think its funny that Im getting a bunch of haters jumping on me about making a simple statement like par is 3. I have been playing for over 15 years and so what makes these guys right and me wrong? Because my opinion is different from theirs so Im wrong? How so? I think if you asked anybody I disc with then the people hyping up par 4's and 5's would be called wrong. RELAX and take bubble baths or something, lol

I can not tell for sure if you are worked up or feel like I am a hater for discussing this with you. I have been shaking my head at you for time and time again totally missing simple logic, but I have not been stressing or doing anything hateful (no need for a bubble bath here! ). Disagreeing is not hating. Discussing is not hating.

Maybe my doggy comments were mistaken as hateful or belligerent.....but I just thought it was amusing that 2 goofy doggy avatars were going back and forth. So, I hope you know where I am coming from and I apologize if anything I have communicated has sounded uncivil.

 

[volklgirl]

Here is the PDGA's chart on determining par.

 

[scarpfish]

A couple of guys on a card at my tournament this past weekend were having a passionate discussion about this very subject in regards to a particularly long hole at one course. Maybe its all the time I've spent on here, but I simply didn't care to get involved, even though I agreed with one of them.

 

[villup]

Par is not the number of strokes a given skill level would be expected to score on a hole with errorless play. Par does not change for different skill levels. I think, like in ball golf, par is par. I don't play ball golf very well, but I don't expect the par to be higher because my skill level is lower than it would require to make a par. Handicapping is a different story. I think it's used to make the game more competitive for players of different skill levels. I don't really know how it works and I have never really seen it in disc golf.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Par is not the number of strokes a given skill level would be expected to score on a hole with errorless play. Par does not change for different skill levels. I think, like in ball golf, par is par.

That is not correct. Pars are set for each of their defined skill levels in ball golf but they always have different tee sets for the skill levels. The par from their color tees is usually the same for each skill level but not always. There are holes where even the shorter tee for women will be a par 5 while the blue tee for men will be a par 4. If women play the back tees, their par will be one shot higher than the men on several holes if it's indicated. Same for the junior and senior pars.

 

[grodney]

those in authority with the PDGA overseeing the sport regarding course design and standards say so.

That statement is a little pinchy.

Has the PDGA been granted any official capacity for overseeing disc golf in any way? (Real question, I don't think I know the answer.)

 

[Cgkdisc]

The PDGA rules are accepted as the rules for the sport globally by the Word Flying Disc Federation. Not sure what other authority might rival the PDGA and WFDF as valid overseers of the sport?

 

[grodney]

Point being, just because there aren't currently any rival authorities, it doesn't make their authority "official" in any way.

The PDGA is the official governing body of PDGA tournaments. Duh, that's pretty obvious. Not the governing body of the game/sport. Or of tournaments. Just PDGA tournaments.

They also oversee standards (target, disc, course?, semantics(par)?) with respect to their tournaments.

Any authority other than is really just self-appointed, right? It may seem official by default, with the strong history and the lack of other entities, but it's really just tradition. Right?

 

[Cgkdisc]

To my knowledge, all other non-PDGA regional tournament series and any other standalone events called tournaments abide by PDGA rules globally and even say that in their series or event flyers. I've never even seen an alternative rules for the game proposed or posted anywhere. Have you? In my post regarding par, I specifically said the PDGA oversees tournament play and that par 3 is the norm for rec players, most who only loosely play by PDGA rules but aren't governed by them.

 

[magictenor1]

Point being, just because there aren't currently any rival authorities, it doesn't make their authority "official" in any way.

The PDGA is the official governing body of PDGA tournaments. Duh, that's pretty obvious. Not the governing body of the game/sport. Or of tournaments. Just PDGA tournaments.

They also oversee standards (target, disc, course?, semantics(par)?) with respect to their tournaments.

Any authority other than is really just self-appointed, right? It may seem official by default, with the strong history and the lack of other entities, but it's really just tradition. Right?

If we follow your logic that the PDGA is not in charge and does not have authority then who does? That would mean we could all play by whatever rules we wanted to, make it up as we went along. Somebody has to make the rules for any sport and for ours I am pretty sure that the PDGA is it.

 

[magictenor1]

To my knowledge, all other non-PDGA regional tournament series and any other standalone events called tournaments abide by PDGA rules globally and even say that in their series or event flyers. I've never even seen an alternative rules for the game proposed or posted anywhere. Have you? In my post regarding par, I specifically said the PDGA oversees tournament play and that par 3 is the norm for rec players, most who only loosely play by PDGA rules but aren't governed by them.

I agree with almost everything you said except the part about rec players. I am one and I always play the listed par. I find that the more of a rec player someone is (ie not too serious, doesn't play tournies) the more likely they are to play posted par instead of all 3's. I find it is the more serious Dg'ers that say all par 3. this is a generalization of course and there may be regional bias as well. I can't speak to what pros think since I don't know any.

 

[grodney]

Not sure it matters, but the RDGA probably has rules (there is a page at discgolfassoc.com), though they aren't for tournament play. And Larry Hols probably penned his own set of rules back in the r.s.d days.

Regardless, my point was: The PDGA, nor any other group, has any authority over course design (and the accompanying lingo). I was simply pointing out that the PDGA doesn't officially have authority over anything (other than self-appointed authority for their own existence (and the WFDF selection of their rules)), and certainly not for course design.

That's why I said your statement was a little pinchy. You didn't *say* the PDGA has any official capacity overseeing course design. But you sorta implied it, especially as a Consultant and with a much-varied (pro to schmo) audience at hand.

The quote, for reference, was "those in authority with the PDGA overseeing the sport regarding course design and standards say so.".

It's all good. I think everyone understands that there isn't really an official word on this.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Sorry, but the PDGA authority is there on course design considering those standards have been referred to in lawsuits several times over the years. Park Depts regularly seek out those standards and want to make sure they are followed by their designers. Within the next few years, that authority will be ramped up even more with some things in the works. Worlds courses have been tweaked by PDGA designers like Houck, Gentry and myself in preparation for the events. We'll be visiting NC several times in that regard before the 2012 Worlds. Probably not to toughen up the courses like we usually need to do but to ease them up so they're not so brutal for some divisions.

 

[jkdisc]

the thing is, does "par" matter? just go see who throws less.