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PAR

How do you keep track of your score?

  • Against the posted par.

    Votes: 84 33.7%
  • Against a par 3 on all holes.

    Votes: 121 48.6%
  • No par per hole, just the total number of throws

    Votes: 22 8.8%
  • Tally against who I am playing with.

    Votes: 6 2.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 16 6.4%

  • Total voters
    249
One of the more interesting aspects of this debate (to me at least) is that I have not seen anybody for the all par 3 give a real justification for it. They all seem to be saying this is my opinion but not why they think it should be so. The other side of the coin has the very real reason that out our sport grew out of ball golf and BG doesn't have just par 3's. Terry C and others: How about it. What is your reasoning?
 
One of the more interesting aspects of this debate (to me at least) is that I have not seen anybody for the all par 3 give a real justification for it. They all seem to be saying this is my opinion but not why they think it should be so. The other side of the coin has the very real reason that out our sport grew out of ball golf and BG doesn't have just par 3's. Terry C and others: How about it. What is your reasoning?

The main reason I stated 10 pages ago:

In my opinion par is the number of strokes a given skill level would be expected to score on a hole with errorless play, but also that there should be no par 4's and par 5's. Disc golf holes shouldnt be so long and difficult that they would require a profesional to average 4 or 5 strokes because then that means that an amateur can expect to get a 7 or maybe 8 strokes on that hole and thats not a well designed disc golf hole in my opinion. Thats all Im trying to say. Im not angry at anyone or anything I just have my opinion, that par should be 3.

I have been reading over and over that the par 3 people dont want to listen to the par 4-5 peoples reasoning. A lot of the par 3 supporters reasons are just simply being blown off as being stupid and dismissed without thought. There has been a lot of people supporting the "every hole should be par 3" argument. Those people are being ignored because its not what the others want to hear.
 
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Agree to disagree gentlemen, I dont really care anymore honestly. We are not going to change your minds and you will not change ours.;):eek:
 
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The main reason I stated 10 pages ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry C
In my opinion par is the number of strokes a given skill level would be expected to score on a hole with errorless play, but also that there should be no par 4's and par 5's. Disc golf holes shouldnt be so long and difficult that they would require a profesional to average 4 or 5 strokes because then that means that an amateur can expect to get a 7 or maybe 8 strokes on that hole and thats not a well designed disc golf hole in my opinion. Thats all Im trying to say. Im not angry at anyone or anything I just have my opinion, that par should be 3.


I have been reading over and over that the par 3 people dont want to listen to the par 4-5 peoples reasoning. A lot of the par 3 supporters reasons are just simply being blown off as being stupid and dismissed without thought. There has been a lot of people supporting the "every hole should be par 3" argument. Those people are being ignored because its not what the others want to hear.

Not ignoring, blowing off or dismissing your words; here is a thought out response to what you posted. And I will not make any judgment on whether or not what you say is stupid.

What you are saying is that since you personally do not want there to be any holes anywhere that take professionals more than 3 stokes to complete, then everything needs to be called par-3. (Am I misrepresenting your post in my rewording of it?)

The problem is that there are holes that take the best players in the world more than 3 strokes to complete. So, despite your personal desire, there are par-4's......by your very own definition!
 
Agree to disagree gentlemen, I dont really care anymore honestly. We are not going to change your minds and you will not change ours.;):eek:

You are correct as far as the people writing on this thread. But the vast majority of thoughtful readers who have not formed opinions one way or the other will hopefully have seen the arguments on both sides of the debate and a chose the side that makes more sense.........and the ranks of the "everything is par-3" crowd will dwindle.

.....and that will be after they are done shaking their heads at the knuckleheads like me who will not let it drop. :doh:
 
You are correct as far as the people writing on this thread. But the vast majority of thoughtful readers who have not formed opinions one way or the other will hopefully have seen the arguments on both sides of the debate and a chose the side that makes more sense.........and the ranks of the "everything is par-3" crowd will dwindle.

.....and that will be after they are done shaking their heads at the knuckleheads like me who will not let it drop. :doh:

That's definitely true of me, not from this thread specifically but from others like it with you, Olorin and Chuck discussing how to set par. Those discussions made me look at the holes I play in terms of how well they separate out different levels of players and how well they fit with the overall level of the course.
 
What you are saying is that since you personally do not want there to be any holes anywhere that take professionals more than 3 stokes to complete, then everything needs to be called par-3. (Am I misrepresenting your post in my rewording of it?)

The problem is that there are holes that take the best players in the world more than 3 strokes to complete. So, despite your personal desire, there are par-4's......by your very own definition!

There are and will be courses designed with par 4-5's. I know this and that is fine. If someone is a top professional then that is the course for them. God bless them for being so good at disc golf, but I feel there is a design flaw with that particular type of course. They should have designed the course to accommodate a wider range of players, not just designed for professionals who play there. 99% of players aren't pro and never will be, so why design a course with such difficulty? I think a more balanced course design would offer holes that challenge a variety of levels of players and the holes posted as par 3. Again, this is just my personal opinion and I'm sure you will find reasons to keep arguing with me to convince me otherwise. I'm honestly past tired of repeating myself to you dave, so soon I will abandon this thread and leave it to another person who understands what I have been saying for over 10 pages of posts. It is clear you cant, or dont want to understand what I'm trying to politely tell you over and over and over again.

The one who talks the loudest and the most is not always right dave. That seems to be your strategy, nothing you have offered as reasons to make courses with pars over 3 has been convincing to me. Heres an idea, maybe just let it go dave, agree to disagree? Apparently your ego wont allow you to do that.
 
One of the more interesting aspects of this debate (to me at least) is that I have not seen anybody for the all par 3 give a real justification for it. They all seem to be saying this is my opinion but not why they think it should be so. The other side of the coin has the very real reason that out our sport grew out of ball golf and BG doesn't have just par 3's. Terry C and others: How about it. What is your reasoning?

Do you have me on ignore?
I'll recap:
easy to keep and count score
creates challenge- if you birdie a bunch of the <350's and the >600's then where do you pick up strokes?
Keeps it easy to compare scores to others without having to lookup courses to figure out par
it's simple and everyone is one the same page- though I disagree with Terry about long holes being a design flaw, I like 1000ft holes

now let me say it's not fair to put 3'ers against cr, ssa, and make up whatever you want to feel better about yourself instead of getting better.

I'll be down for varied par once everyone is on the same page. As was mentioned before Terry Calhoun's pars make sense to me but I can't remember which ones are varied, all threes are simply easier to remember.

I'll admitt I'm a ssa fan in secret but until we get one standard I feel all threes is superior.
Me n Terry:"what cha score at brewer white" "two over" me thinking- 54+2=54
varied par fans: "what cha score at brewer white" "two over" " which par system" " what ever they answer" "hold on, let me look up all the holes and/or scoring average to compare scores"
 
After reading this thread in its entirity, the upper hand in the argument easily goes to those favoring possible Pars above 3. While I agree that a uniform system should be employed for legitimacy, the absence of a system does not make the idea ignorant. My conundrum is this...I always keep score (which is what the question states) based on 3 because it is simpler. However, if a course has legit par 4s and 5s, I will look at the total course Par at the end of the round and adjust my score. For instance if I shoot a +6, then I see that the course has 3 holes considered by the designer to be Par 4, then it's an easy adjustment to +3.

Terry, I give you credit for sticking with this argument, but your points have been all over the board. You began on page 6 by stating "I know I am right on this", and your last post is begging Dave to "let it go" and "agree to disagree". Honestly by making those statements, you have pretty much admitted defeat in the discussion. Also, your original post began by alluding to the fact that par was not meant to make players feel good and that if they got a 4 on a hole greater than 600 feet, that it was a +1 and they suck. Your last post was totally flipped and stated that any course with Par 4s or 5s was desinged erroneously and that not every disc golfer is a pro, so we average players shouldn't be expected to enjoy a tough course with Par 4s and 5s. So which is it? Are Pars above 3 designed for wimps or pros? Based on the incoherent nature of your argument, Dave wins because of his persistence on the argument. We all understand that it is mentally easier to keep score in your head based on Par 3. That's fine, but you can adjust to the correct Par at the end of a round. And most locals will know the designated Par for the course so the argument about comparing scores with another player is moot at best.
 
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Let me also say that I have very big dg goals for myself. From what Dave describes, I am a blue level player but I'm not okay with that. I see many guys bombing on long holes for threes, I want that! I don't even want to shoot even, I want under!
Ssa for my home course for '98-'07 was 55 for the 2000 worlds. I'm only a few behind that and I think playing all threes helps. At pro/am this Monday my partner and I shot -11, two behind first. We did not get one four.
 
Let me also say that I have very big dg goals for myself. From what Dave describes, I am a blue level player but I'm not okay with that. I see many guys bombing on long holes for threes, I want that! I don't even want to shoot even, I want under!
Ssa for my home course for '98-'07 was 55 for the 2000 worlds. I'm only a few behind that and I think playing all threes helps. At pro/am this Monday my partner and I shot -11, two behind first. We did not get one four.
 
I'm only a few behind that and I think playing all threes helps.

I've heard this statement a few times, and I still don't understand how changing the par changes how well you do on a hole or how quickly you improve as a player.
 
The most insidious problem with the par 3 mentality has nothing to with numbers but with public perception. In essence, you get what you promote. You talk to the media and say our courses are par 3, they compare it with golf and it seems like a recreational game and not an emerging legitimate sport. You counter with the fact that we really do have some long holes on courses but we just call them par 3 so it's easy for scoring. The reporter says, "You mean you don't use scorecards?" Another negative. You talk with the Park Director about getting a new course and (s)he gets the impression it's a game not a sport when you talk all par 3s. They don't think as much land is needed compared to what is needed. So, your designers and players sustain the par 3 ideals and your state remains stuck in neutral.

Both Worlds in Michigan had the shortest, easiest set of courses in their five year window. Ann Arbor in 2000 had the shortest courses in the past decade and Kalamazoo in 2008 had the shortest between 2005 and 2010. Feldberg came back home and won Worlds in Michigan after honing his game on tougher courses. It would be a surprise if any course longer than Flip City was the top rated course in Michigan. It's king of the par 3s and they apparently learned how to do it well.

Now the vast number of Michigan rec players may care less about playing well elsewhere at the highest levels. But they also may not know what they're missing playing courses having par 4s & 5s designed to test their specific skill level. Rec players are the core market for Highbridge out in the boondocks where all courses have par 4s & 5s for all skill levels and they are traveling there in droves, even if all they have are par 3 courses at home. The blue level Steady Ed at PDGA HQ in Georgia is the most popular of the courses at the IDGC and it definitely has several par 4s & 5s. So it doesn't seem to be scaring rec players away.

However, I will say that at every site that has more than one course on it, the shortest course will be the most popular in terms of usage, even at Highbridge. So "par 3" is alive and will continue as the norm and expectation for the vast majority of players.
 
After reading this thread in its entirity, the upper hand in the argument easily goes to those favoring possible Pars above 3. While I agree that a uniform system should be employed for legitimacy, the absence of a system does not make the idea ignorant. My conundrum is this...I always keep score (which is what the question states) based on 3 because it is simpler. However, if a course has legit par 4s and 5s, I will look at the total course Par at the end of the round and adjust my score. For instance if I shoot a +6, then I see that the course has 3 holes considered by the designer to be Par 4, then it's an easy adjustment to +3.

Terry, I give you credit for sticking with this argument, but your points have been all over the board. You began on page 6 by stating "I know I am right on this", and your last post is begging Dave to "let it go" and "agree to disagree". Honestly by making those statements, you have pretty much admitted defeat in the discussion. Also, your original post began by alluding to the fact that par was not meant to make players feel good and that if they got a 4 on a hole greater than 600 feet, that it was a +1 and they suck. Your last post was totally flipped and stated that any course with Par 4s or 5s was designed erroneously and that not every disc golfer is a pro, so we average players shouldn't be expected to enjoy a tough course with Par 4s and 5s. So which is it? Are Pars above 3 designed for wimps or pros? Based on the incoherent nature of your argument, Dave wins because of his persistence on the argument. We all understand that it is mentally easier to keep score in your head based on Par 3. That's fine, but you can adjust to the correct Par at the end of a round. And most locals will know the designated Par for the course so the argument about comparing scores with another player is moot at best.

Zman, I will keep this short and sweet for you dude, I stated that I felt a par 3 system was what I personally felt was a better system and stated the reasons why several times. Then I got followed around by an annoying troll for a week trying to convince me otherwise with unconvincing facts. After a week of BS and back and forth troll dodging I realized this conversation was troll food so I asked to just agree to disagree to make it go away. I still do and will always feel the same about par should be 3. I'm just not playing the feed the troll game anymore. If me stopping arguing means " I LOSE" then I lose in your eyes and thats fine. By the polls results it appears most people prefer to keep score as par 3, so some people obviously feel the same as me. They are just being passive and avoiding the troll hoard.

I have already gotten a few PM's from people who agree with me, I guess I am their spokesperson but I am done with this. If people want to keep asking me the same things then they can go back 10 pages and re-read what I have already written.
 
It makes me figure out what I need to do to achieve a three. I could simply throw four hyzers and a putt to get a five on a 1000footer but instead I dwell on how I need to throw farther and how I need to approach on the inside line which wound require me to throw a long hflip that turns over a lol to put me on the right side, then another turnover to get to the green. I'll also have to throw a harder putt to get three.
It doesn't matter how pretty a shot is because the reward for a hole or round is the score. It's like when you had/have a teacher that gives you a B+ instead of an A even though your paper was better then everyone elses because they know if they give you a A you won't strive further. I know I'd still want to go as low as possible but I'd be way more content with a 4or5 if it's what I was suppose to get.
I heard a saying that I go by: Get your pars and the birdies will come. If I followed that with varied par, how could I get better?
I see some really great players around here and none of them are okay with a five.

Here's my question, how does playing varied par help you improve?
 
It makes me figure out what I need to do to achieve a three. I could simply throw four hyzers and a putt to get a five on a 1000footer but instead I dwell on how I need to throw farther and how I need to approach on the inside line which wound require me to throw a long hflip that turns over a lol to put me on the right side, then another turnover to get to the green. I'll also have to throw a harder putt to get three.
It doesn't matter how pretty a shot is because the reward for a hole or round is the score. It's like when you had/have a teacher that gives you a B+ instead of an A even though your paper was better then everyone elses because they know if they give you a A you won't strive further. I know I'd still want to go as low as possible but I'd be way more content with a 4or5 if it's what I was suppose to get.
I heard a saying that I go by: Get your pars and the birdies will come. If I followed that with varied par, how could I get better?
I see some really great players around here and none of them are okay with a five.

Here's my question, how does playing varied par help you improve?

Interesting. I can see where you're coming from, I guess I just have a different attitude when I play. I look at a hole and think about what shot will give me the best chance to get the best possible score on a hole regardless of what the posted par is. On a wide open 1000' hole, I'm going to throw as far as I can on the first couple shots so I have the best possible chance of getting a 4, because I know anything lower than that would be luck based on my personal distance and skill level. By the all par 3 method, I'd be shooting for bogey, and by most other par methods I'd be aiming for a birdie, but that doesn't change how I approach the hole. Par is independent of how I look at a hole and what I expect myself to get.
 
I wish I could speak with more experience, but I've only been playing for a month. I suppose I'll just ask a question, which has possibly been answered. Was this a debate for ball golf in it's early life, and how was an organized system agreed upon?
 
Thanks for your explanation Craftsman, and for all you wrote TerryC. It has me thinking along the lines of psychology and what Par is "telling" us. Like Mashnut, I divorce my thinking and expectations from what anything but the hole before me is presenting/challenging me with. For those who do not do that maybe things are like this (just thinking out loud):

Some people might hear Par saying, "This is what really good people shoot. If you achieve this score you have arrived!"

Others may hear this command, "This is how this hole is supposed to play for you so plan your shots accordingly."

Others may hear, "Is this a challenge?! Par schmar - I'll do better than that or I am not a real man!"

and I'm sure there are others.

......back to the Penguins game
 
Cgkdisc, I can dig what your saying there and I don't want my scorekeeping system to hold back the sports expansion but most of the courses have varied par, we just don't follow em. Mason county boasts some lenght but the courses aren't ready to host an event that big. The new Kensington is definatly a harder course deserving of varied par but we just don't play em as varied. Same for cass Benton holes 3&18. Terry's ponds at lakeshore has a more open feel with ob pits and some nice lenghths but we still don't vary par when we play em.

The courses your talking about were built in the 90's or early 2000's. The new ones are definatly beefing up. Independence lake was a nice addition being down the road from Hudson.

I'm not saying I want all 70's style courses. I like a challenge. I play the tobaggan as all threes.

Do you really feel our scorekeeping is holding back our progression? I will admitt I hear complaints about ponds being too open or indy's rough being too rough but I'm all for it. Maybe it's just state pride but I thought mi. was a leader in dg hosting a variety of courses. Your giving me the impression that were behind others. How long are these other courses? I mean most of the courses I play are at least five or six thousand feet with a couple 700-1000 footers. I have some DVDs and the courses don't look much harder then some I've played.
 
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