Pay to Play is NOT a con

[magictenor1]

I am with Mattk on this one. I play a lot of state parks where you pay to get in and that does not bother me but I would not like to see courses with major fees. I used to play ball golf and one of the things I like about DG is NO Carts and the Natural feel of most courses. I do not want courses that look like ball golf courses and I don't want to spend a lot of money to play.

 

[Texconsinite]

I think when they say Ball golf-like conditions, they mean well maintained and with amenities. I liked the idea of the clubhouse with alcohol, smoothie bar and pool tables. Someone should tell Chuck Kennedy, so they can get a smoothie bar at Highbridge, if they haven't already!

 

[basmith42]

Sign/Hole sponsorship

I never thought of hole sponsership... that's a great idea. If anything it would make it easy for the park to offset the initial cost of installation. I bet signs on the Tees would be able to pay the cost of a course within 3 years. Not a bad ROA.

 

[Innovadude]

Pay to play at Hudson Mills is a joke. I won't be going back to my "HOME" course very often. 20$ parking on top of 5-6$ gas to get there and back, now 50$ a year extra. This is how I see it..if every course cost me...3$ to play as a fee, that'd cost over 2,100$ extra dollars for my road trip. Where am I going to get that? I play because it's relatively cheap. Not paying to play allows me to afford to get to a place to play, have discs, eat and sleep.

 

[Three Putt]

The problem we had was that we were not set up at all to sell hole sponsorship. We had a very small staff juggling responsibilities to manage a ton of programs. Disc golf was about 10% of my job April-October and about .0001% of my job the rest of the year, and I never had a "slow season" where I had extra time to go look for hole sponsors. Also, a Parks and Recreation degree teaches you a lot about public administration but not a lot about marketing and nothing about sales. Besides, I was a park guy. The whole point of having a park guy on the payroll was to have me develop recreation opportunities for the community. Having me wander around trying to sell ads on tee signs does not really fit that description.

So why it sounds like a great idea, it's not as easy done as said.

 

[Donovan]

The problem we had was that we were not set up at all to sell hole sponsorship. We had a very small staff juggling responsibilities to manage a ton of programs. Disc golf was about 10% of my job April-October and about .0001% of my job the rest of the year, and I never had a "slow season" where I had extra time to go look for hole sponsors. Also, a Parks and Recreation degree teaches you a lot about public administration but not a lot about marketing and nothing about sales. Besides, I was a park guy. The whole point of having a park guy on the payroll was to have me develop recreation opportunities for the community. Having me wander around trying to sell ads on tee signs does not really fit that description.

So why it sounds like a great idea, it's not as easy done as said.

While I said it was the way to get funding, I never said it was going to be easy. But if a park really wants to get some extra funding, you can sell the idea. You tell the local shops that for XX amount of money you get to support the park in your community and so forth. If you want me to write up a complete pitch, I would be glad to later on. The signs should be made, as I hate to say it....just like the ball golf course signs. That is where I got the idea. It is just a better move. I even suggested this for a pol hall to have signs above their tables once to earn money for new cloth...one month later, they were installing the cloth.

 

[basmith42]

10% of the park department's time? Wow.

I had no idea 10% of a parks department's time could go into a DG course.
Could you elaborate on what's involved for the park's department to run the courses? (no offense or baiting intended here)

Iwill make me appreciate the costs involved in running a course.

I've always thought that they were a relatively low-cost/low-fuss recreation activity for the parks department. What am I missing?

 

[Three Putt]

I had no idea 10% of a parks department's time could go into a DG course.
Could you elaborate on what's involved for the park's department to run the courses? (no offense or baiting intended here)

Iwill make me appreciate the costs involved in running a course.

I've always thought that they were a relatively low-cost/low-fuss recreation activity for the parks department. What am I missing?

You are not missing anything. Disc golf took 10% of my time in the summer, 4-5 hours a week out of what was usually a 50 hr. work week. BUT...I was one of 7 full-time staff. Plus we had about 75 part-time or seasonal staff and about 20 contractual instructors, not counting any of the maintenance guys who were in a separate department. So it took nowhere near 10% of the departments time. Sorry if my post was misleading.

Disc golf took 10% of my time because I ran leagues, held 10-12 tournaments a year and we sold 8,000-10,000 disc/year. When I started there we sold 2,000 disc/year, and the extra 6,000-8,000 discs didn't sell themselves.

Anyway, if we had been like most departments you are right...it would take no time after the initial installation. Some Club would run the leagues and tournaments...the most we would have to do is mow the grass and empty the trash cans (if that!) Some local guys would sell discs out of their trunk in the parking lot (here is hoping that's ALL they are selling.) For most parks departments, disc golf courses are nothing more than adult playgrounds that you install and ignore until something breaks or somebody complains.

This is part of our problem with the parks and recreation industry. Somebody else gets to do the fun stuff...developing players, running events where people have fun, selling that sweet plastic...somebody else does all that. All the park gets to deal with is the stolen baskets and Mrs. Crotchety who calls her City Councilman twice a week to say she saw people smoking dope on that Frisbee golf course. For most park guys, dealing with the disc golf course means dealing with a problem.

 

[basmith42]

Thanks

Thanks for clarifying, Three Putt...
I wish our local parks department was as involved as you were. sonds like you had some fun with it.

 

[ZMan44]

If someone is to open a privatized disc golf course, they are obviously looking for a profit. How much of a profit are you actually going to make from disc golf alone? Be serious. The guys at Marshall Street have an awesome facility...but they also run the Christmas tree farm on the land as well. The "for-profit" courses may be a trend in the future but we are looking at an immense amount of baby steps between here and there. In my area of the country, if you went to a bank and asked for a small business loan to develop a piece of land for disc golf. You could even tell them that you wanted to build a clubhouse and have nice amenities and facilities...and they would laugh you out of every bank in this state. You could always invest your own funds but most disc golfers don't have a solid $250,000 just to throw into a course. (in Tennessee that will buy you around 5 acres with a little left over to build some type of clubhouse, and install the course) The problem is that investors expect a return, and building and running a disc golf course with the intent of earning a profit is not going to return the initial investment. Like the scenario above, how long would it take to recoup that $250,000? The answer is a long, long, long time...if ever. And I would place the probability of "if ever" better than 80%. I analyze these deals for a living and this is not going to attract any investors. Like I said before, I could care less if I have to pay-to-play occasionally, but disc golf is a long way from becoming a private sector money-maker.

One thing about the point on mini-golf...Mini golf is about $5-$7 per round, but if there were a free course down the street that was nice too, but maybe had one less "castle" or "clown-Mouth", everyone would go to the free one and the other would go out of business quickly. Disc golf is no different. It is easier to introduce newbies when it is free. The main thing that we all must understand is that we all love disc golf and we want the sport to grow. But we must also understand that disc-golf is not currently "mainstream". Until that happens, a true pay-to-play course will be difficult to operate or manage, and I don't see anyone ready to jump into that investment. I agree that some incredible courses and designs could be engineered, but it is highly unlikely at this time.

Also, we have hole sponsorships here for our local public-park courses and it works well. The have advertising signs beside the teepads.

 

[oakley doakley]

Twin Parks in Austin is trying to be a premium pay-to-play disc golf course.(www.twinparkscountryclub.com/) But there not there yet. I plan to got Old English and Fun Farm in Indiana soon to see what there about. But I agree with ZMan44 in disc golf is not mainstream enough for a big money course to pay for it's self. I don't think just because more people begin to create a pay-to-play course that the free ones are going to go away. I will say that as far as reviewing a course to be pay-to-play and it being a con. You should be able to see were your money is going in the courses. If you paid to play and there is no course signs and crappy tee boxes and just "run of the mill" then in my opinion paying was a con. On the other hand u payed and they provided you with a nice color scorecard with map, all the tee signs are there, the tee pads are great, and there is a pro shop in the AC along with nice restrooms, a littler food bar, concessions that sell beer, soda, etc. Not a con to me. Most course don't have a pro-shop. Every course I have paid for except one had a pro shop. The one course that didn't you paid on the honor system it was only a buck anyhow. Paying to play and the free courses have there place. It's good for the game. The courses that are in State parks that you pay by going in wouldn't you have to do that if there wasn't a course there. I think that could be a con if the course was below average. Whats great about it is we all get to decide by paying-to-play or not. If you don't like don't go. I'll pay and if it is a waste of money it would not be the first time.(I have a Wheel from Quest and love casinos)

 

[Bensontbjj]

Pay to Play

I think that it is ok within reason but I really like what the members at the Sinks have been able to do to cover the costs. They have had hole sponsorships that got the money necessary to build a top notch course. There is a great deal of ownership by local members as has been mentioned in its course review but this gave them some much needed funds to jump start the course. As with any discussion item there will always be people on both sides with great personal vision.

 

[Donovan]

I'll pay and if it is a waste of money it would not be the first time.(I have a Wheel from Quest and love casinos)

OMG that is funny! NICE ONE!

 

[-HUC-]

More course will be built

I don't think people appreciate that pay to play courses are important for disc golf because they will convince people to build new disc golf courses. Most of the time people who put in courses almost never have that initially in mind when they get the land. They either have property that isn't used that much like the park service or used for only park of the year like ski runs or hunting land. People like Timmy Gill out of Minnesota have been pointing out the success of pay to play courses and succeeding in convincing land owners to install them to make a little money instead of letting the land just sit there.

It's true that if they don't put in a good course they aren't likely to make that much money, but the only thing you risk if you already have land is the cost of baskets and effort in getting the course made. Usually, if someone is smart about course design and is willing to put in the work they can put in a great course for everyone to enjoy and make a fee on the side. Why not?

Most people cringe at the idea of paying to play. Thats pretty natural. The reason I got into disc golf was it was cheap to play and still really fun. At the time, I didn't understand that there is a lot of work that gets done by volunteers to keep courses in good shape. If we could get facilities to manage their own land then that would allow local organizations focus more on running events and opening new courses than focus on the upkeep.

 

[adlacro]

Out of state State Parks charge out the (slide whistle)

I can somewhat understand pay to play on private property and some of the stae parks. I find it a shame to charge out of staters more than the locals. If you're driving somewhere,( I'll use Brandywine State Park in Wilmington, Delaware), and I live in PA. I get charged like 6 or 7 dollars as opposed to living somehwere in DE and get charged 3. I also like to throw two or three courses in a day as opposed to one course three times. Multiply the out of state fee three times. I'm out an Andrew Jackson instead of an Alexander Hamilton. I understand they need to make money, but it's an inconvience fee as opposed to a con about the dg course. Brandywine is still one of my all time favorite courses, but since DE changed their state park fee charging times, I have not played there since November 2007. The don't charge fees in like the dead of winter. I'm not driving 70 miles in 35-40 degree weather with the snow on the ground and the roads barely dry. If I'm sounding like a cheap heel, thanks for the compliment. Feedback always appreciated and not always taken with a grain of salt in an open wood.

 

[Donovan]

Don't get me wrong. I don't think it is OK to charge $20 for parking and $7 to play at some of these state parks. I do understand that they do it, because there are so very few choices. It is taking advantage of people in that situation.

However, charging $2-$5 for a private property course that is in great shape with really great holes, is totally worth it. I guess alot of this depends on what your other options are and where you live.

This is an emotional issue. There is no doubt there. If I were back at college and was broke 80% of the time, I would be screaming, "No way to pay!" Anyway, I think it is totally OK to have both as long as we have both.

 

[John Merhi]

Disc golf does not cost what ball golf does, not nearly as much. The costs of putting in a disc golf course and maintaining it are comparable to that of playground equipment and such. I can't imagine telling the boys who use the basketball hoops in the park that it will cost 'em five bucks a game. I don't think that the man who jogs around the track should be charged the "nominal fee" of only one dollar a lap (hope you brought your wallet). I don't want the little girl who climbs on the jungle gym to be charged by the climb or by the hour (can't afford to climb - tell your mommy to make more money). And I don't want the kids who just spent several weeks worth of allowance on their first golf discs to be charged what some people here consider a paltry sum of 2, 5, 10 or 15 dollars for the right to learn the game that all of us learned for free.

I agree 100%.

Another point for pay for play...we get labeled as a "stoner" sport because people who really don't care about playing but are looking for a place to go get high hang around our free courses smoking dope, vandalizing our equipment, making sure the neighbors see them being stupid and once and a while throw a hyzer drive. Once you charge those knuckleheads even a nominal fee, they will go get stoned behind the Gas 'N Sip and leave us alone. I'd gladly pay $2/day or $50/year to get rid of those guys.

WOW! I know I'm a cynic, but damn! That's a seriously cynical viewpoint and thankfully one that my 20 years of experience can't justify. We get labeled a "stoner" sport for many justifiable reasons. But vandalism and kids hanging out at the park is HARDLY the reason why. Kids who can afford weed can also afford the $2-5 admission price. Don't look to blame a fringe element for a "problem" that is clearly pervasive across all aspects of disc golf.

Lets not forget that the reviews posted on this site are by users for users. While the OP has some valid points, its bad form to make blanket statements about how others should or should not interpret the pros/cons of a course as it pertains to their review.

AB SO LUTELY!

 

[magictenor1]

State parks down here usually only charge 2 or 3 bucks and parking is free. If I had to pay $20 to park and then a fee to play I probably would not. When I have reviewed courses I have not factored in the pay element at all and have not even mentioned it but I think that is because the fee to get in the state parks is so low that I don't really think of those courses as play to pay. If a course did cost more I could certainly see that as a con as opposed to a course that was free.

 

[davetherocketguy]

FWIW...I have no problem paying to play BUT...Once you make me play then my standards go up based on how much I pay. Kinda like this (this is a very generalized list and subject to change):

$1 - $3: Most tee signs up with baskets in functioning shape.

$3 - $5: All tee signs (even temporary ones) and baskets up. Little to no trash. Concrete tee pads.

$5 - $20: Tee signs in very good shape. Zero trash. Mowed grass where appropriate. Decent landscaping (read: thin out the d*** schule).

$20 - $40: Very well landscaped - there better be pretty flowers. Very large concrete tee pads, a layout worthy of a championship caliber course and multiple tees. I expect rangers roaming the course enforcing the, "let smaller groups play thru" rule and making sure every one is having a good time.

$40+: There better be lots of free beer involved.

I have had (along with a friend of mine) bad experiences with one course in particular in the area so I have soured to the idea of paying to play. The park rangers have no problem driving their stupid little cart around making sure that everyone has their little bag tags showing proof of payment. However, they allow hordes (read 10 or more - as many as 18) play together in a single mass without enforcing the "allow smaller groups play thru" rule. Many tee signs are missing. Very few people have any clue regarding basic common DG courtesies inspite of the signs posted everywhere about it. The worst of it is, this is a county park in my county so my tax dollars are helping support this garbage.

I have had much better experiences at courses that are free.

-Dave

 

[PhattD]

Well said Dave. I don't mind paying if I get what I pay for. And if I'm paying $2 for all day it's only gotta be a little bit better but MUST be better otherwise why pay? As to why we get labeld as a stoner sport, I really think it's all the guys smoking weed. I could be wrong but... lol. On one of the course picnic tables someone wrote "Have a roach leave a roach. Need a roach take a roach." And someone actually left a roach there. lol I was laughing for 6 holes. Try that anywhere else and see if it works.