PDGA Executive Director Resigns

[colucc43]

I like this thinking. I honestly don't know how it would work without on the ground advocacy, but I agree with the growth model.

More and more parents are pulling their kids from team sports because the environment is so hostile and unfriendly. After five years of competitive soccer, I pulled both my sons. Too many psycho parents and trainers.

I hear you about the hostile, unfriendly environment and psycho parents/coaches. I had to live through a lot of that. Thankfully my dad is chill and always told my brother and I that we didn't have to stick with soccer (along with many of the other sports we played) if we didn't want to and weren't having fun. I stuck around until I was 18 (not that long ago just for context), but had had enough at that point. Could've played in college but just stuck with track/xc instead.

Anyway, yeah with the increasing severity of contact sports injuries and their long term affects, I don't see how disc golf couldn't be appealing to parents who still want their kids to enjoy doing athletic and competitive things and not deal with overt and almost unavoidable hostility and bodily harm.

Disc golf, in general, brings a relaxed but competitive environment. This seems to be one of this sport's main advantages. I think it's really something whoever ultimately ends up running the PDGA should emphasize going forward--as they hopefully direct attention in ways like I mentioned in the previous post.

 

[Three Putt]

Getting more disc golf in schools. Marketing the game to parents with kids ages 5 to ~15, as a quality competitive sport and alternative to contact sports. Getting baskets to middle/high schools that have some land around them; or even 1 or 2 baskets in at schools with less land.

Additionally, getting mini courses of 3 or 6 baskets, say, in at smaller parks close to (densely populated) residential areas that kids could easily walk to to play.

Real long term growth can come from an investment in tangible disc golf infrastructure, like I briefly described above, and by directing attention towards younger people. Just some quick thoughts.

I like this thinking. I honestly don't know how it would work without on the ground advocacy, but I agree with the growth model.

More and more parents are pulling their kids from team sports because the environment is so hostile and unfriendly. After five years of competitive soccer, I pulled both my sons. Too many psycho parents and trainers.

Strangely enough, programs like that plus a push to have disc golf included in park master planning was what made Hoeniger tell me off on the phone. His reply was something along the lines of that it wasn't his job to promote disc golf. His job was to run the PDGA tour.

Of course that was a long time ago, so it depends on where the needle would have moved inside the PDGA to see if it's the sport or the tour that matters the most now.

 

[onemilemore]

Strangely enough, programs like that plus a push to have disc golf included in park master planning was what made Hoeniger tell me off on the phone. His reply was something along the lines of that it wasn't his job to promote disc golf. His job was to run the PDGA tour.

Of course that was a long time ago, so it depends on where the needle would have moved inside the PDGA to see if it's the sport or the tour that matters the most now.

This is where a split into two organizations would be most beneficial. Call them whatever you want, but one that focuses on advocacy/growth in the youth and am sector, then another specifically for pros, would be ideal imo. But we've been spinning that wheel for awhile around here now and I am not sure what would realistically need to happen to achieve it.

 

[Three Putt]

This is where a split into two organizations would be most beneficial. Call them whatever you want, but one that focuses on advocacy/growth in the youth and am sector, then another specifically for pros, would be ideal imo. But we've been spinning that wheel for awhile around here now and I am not sure what would realistically need to happen to achieve it.

Enough money coming in from outside to make a Pro tour sustainable without needing to use the money that would be used for advocacy/growth to prop up the tour. That's really the bottom line: not enough money to do both so you have to pick one. Historically we have chosen the tour.

 

[lyleoross]

Until you find a way to fund the Pro side, the two are tied to a high extent - unless you're willing to kill the pro side. The handful of truly sponsored Pros is too small to drive the sport at this time.

It does seem like a good idea to add a staff position, Amature Tour Specialist. I've been reading the complaints of am players for years. Of course, that all goes away as soon as they hit a rating that convinces them they can compete at the pro level.

The underlying problem is that pretty much every am is convinced that "someday" they too will be a pro.

You can see by reading the threads associated with certain events, that a focus on am "quality" does pay off. Those events that do this well get high kudos here and are sought after.

 

[Three Putt]

Enough money coming in from outside to make a Pro tour sustainable without needing to use the money that would be used for advocacy/growth to prop up the tour. That's really the bottom line: not enough money to do both so you have to pick one. Historically we have chosen the tour.

Basically if Hoeniger had been more diplomatic with me on the phone, the response would have been something along the lines of "The PDGA would love to dedicate funds for advocacy in the Parks and Recreation profession and growth in the youth market. Unfortunately we are not currently in the position to have the funding to take on these initiatives." That's probably a lot closer to reality than "Not my job." The PDGA has a lot more staff and a lot more members today than it did then, so it might be in a position to move in that direction. Or, it might not.

 

[deadbody]

Until you find a way to fund the Pro side, the two are tied to a high extent - unless you're willing to kill the pro side. The handful of truly sponsored Pros is too small to drive the sport at this time.

It does seem like a good idea to add a staff position, Amature Tour Specialist. I've been reading the complaints of am players for years. Of course, that all goes away as soon as they hit a rating that convinces them they can compete at the pro level.

The underlying problem is that pretty much every am is convinced that "someday" they too will be a pro.

You can see by reading the threads associated with certain events, that a focus on am "quality" does pay off. Those events that do this well get high kudos here and are sought after.

Why are we trying to prop up a pro side though?

I started playing disc golf cause a friend of mine took me to a course. I didn't know who pros were until years later. I help run a club and many of my members don't know or care who the pros are, and that is part of why many aren't members of the PDGA.

Does the pro side actually grow the game? Or would that money be better served advocating for and helping to build lots of courses to make the game super accessible to kids.

I grew up playing a lot of basketball. Not because I wanted to be like Michael Jordan, but because I owned a basketball and there was a court very close I could go shoot at. If we could get a 3 hole disc golf course there, I would have played it, and known of the sport much earlier.

The PDGA needs to identify what their core goal is. Is it to grow the sport? Or is it to grow the Professional side of the sport? If it is to grow Professional side and hope that leads to growth then the new ED needs to be a major player in the schmoozing big companies side to start bringing in major sponsorship dollars. Create the spectacle that people want to see ala Red Bull Crashed Ice.

If the PDGA instead wants to focus on the growth of the game itself, first they should probably rebrand to take the P out, and second the ED needs to be someone who can work with city and park boards all across the world. Someone who can be a resource to all the folks in the trenches getting courses put in. If the pro tour can support itself than let it, but don't put a large share of resources into it (other than maybe worlds).

 

[lyleoross]

Why are we trying to prop up a pro side though?

I started playing disc golf cause a friend of mine took me to a course. I didn't know who pros were until years later. I help run a club and many of my members don't know or care who the pros are, and that is part of why many aren't members of the PDGA.

Your points are very valid but they run into two problems. The first I wrote in my post. All of the ams that are in the PDGA are there because they think someday they are going to be pros. That isn't speculation, that is based on what they say and do. The PDGA has polled the membership several times and inevitably the number one request is to grow the pro game. That isn't pros asking for that, it's the ams. Psycho, yep.

The second problem is with the guys you play with in your club. Actually, they taint a problem. They don't join the PDGA simply because they aren't really interested. That is, even if it was the ADGA, they probably wouldn't join. That one I have no evidence for, it's based on what the players in my local club say. There is a select group of people that enjoy local league and that is good enough. I suspect is is why the PDGA added a league option to their tournament play.

One item that used to be discussed on the old DISCussion board was how could the PDGA better support local clubs, or build a local club super-structure that better integrated said clubs and built a relationship. Or more simply, how does the PDGA build a better relationship with those non-involved players? EDGE was one attempt, if I recall correctly.

 

[lyleoross]

Basically if Hoeniger had been more diplomatic with me on the phone, the response would have been something along the lines of "The PDGA would love to dedicate funds for advocacy in the Parks and Recreation profession and growth in the youth market. Unfortunately, we are not currently in the position to have the funding to take on these initiatives." That's probably a lot closer to reality than "Not my job." The PDGA has a lot more staff and a lot more members today than it did then, so it might be in a position to move in that direction. Or, it might not.

Poor BH, you're takin' him to the whippin' shed. He did do some very good things, but as you've said, was outspoken about his role and the role of the PDGA. I still liked him, though.

 

[teemkey]

I really don't understand the PDGA's actions to grow the sport for kids, other than stating it as a goal. Yes, there's EDGE, but look how the major sports are promoted by service organizations (Kiwanis, YMCA/YWCA, Rotary, etc.) who sponsor organized leagues where the kids can play, learn the sport, and develop their skills.

How many PDGA tournaments in your area have you seen with a strong junior field?

 

[lyleoross]

I really don't understand the PDGA's actions to grow the sport for kids, other than stating it as a goal. Yes, there's EDGE, but look how the major sports are promoted by service organizations (Kiwanis, YMCA/YWCA, Rotary, etc.) who sponsor organized leagues where the kids can play, learn the sport, and develop their skills.

How many PDGA tournaments in your area have you seen with a strong junior field?

One, which is better than most places. The demographic has grown, but that doesn't mean you aren't correct. Heck, Nikko does more than... some.

 

[deadbody]

Your points are very valid but they run into two problems. The first I wrote in my post. All of the ams that are in the PDGA are there because they think someday they are going to be pros. That isn't speculation, that is based on what they say and do. The PDGA has polled the membership several times and inevitably the number one request is to grow the pro game. That isn't pros asking for that, it's the ams. Psycho, yep.

The second problem is with the guys you play with in your club. Actually, they taint a problem. They don't join the PDGA simply because they aren't really interested. That is, even if it was the ADGA, they probably wouldn't join. That one I have no evidence for, it's based on what the players in my local club say. There is a select group of people that enjoy local league and that is good enough. I suspect is is why the PDGA added a league option to their tournament play.

One item that used to be discussed on the old DISCussion board was how could the PDGA better support local clubs, or build a local club super-structure that better integrated said clubs and built a relationship. Or more simply, how does the PDGA build a better relationship with those non-involved players? EDGE was one attempt, if I recall correctly.

Is your first point self-fulfilling though? Like do the people who join the PDGA do so with the intent of being pro's because that's what is required for tournaments?

I mean I had a membership because I needed it to play in tournaments and worlds. I let it lapse because I don't play in tournaments and I don't need to subsidize those that do. But it the PDGA was still offering that sanctioning arm and worlds, while focusing on growing the sport I would be all over a lifetime membership. You would still have the same members who are there because of tournaments, because those people won't leave the competition but you will add a lot of members who then look at it as helping the sport, rather than helping the pros (example I always drop $10-15 at the concession stand when it goes to the youth sports my kids are playing, I never do at pro events).

Your second point comes along with your first. If the new DGPA (Disc Golf Players Association) came out and made a push to grow the game, offering themselves as a resource for schools and parks, and the people who want to get the game into schools and parks most of my league would join. Not because we have delusions of grandeur that we will turn pro and make all the money and nail all the babes, but because we would see that the Association was doing things to make all of Disc Golf better. Not just the pro game.


When all you do is poll a small group of the players you will get the answer they want, they have already self-selected as a small minority (the group that wants top-level competition in disc golf) so all their answer will serve that group. I would be more interested in a survey of all current and former members to see if the answer changed.

 

[jvphobic]

Terry Miller please stand up - the only thing I don't know if can/can't do effectively is fund raise. He has strong player relations, an eye for media and a history of event management (Wisco state coordinator for a long time right?). Although I don't think he would want to step away from Smashboxx and the flexibility his current gigs allow for.

I jokingly brought it up with him the other night. He isn't interested. While I do personally think he could do a great job at it, it isn't what he wants out of disc golf.

And yes... he sucks at fund raising cause he hates doing it.

And it could be a conflict of interest with him being part owner of SmashBoxxTV. He would have to step away to be the director.

My personal take on Pros vs Grows.
The PDGA & local clubs are the catalyst in the expansion of recreational players in the sport.

Most pros do not help grow the sport. And by that I mean bring in NEW players. The Pros help promote the sport to casual players and get them more excited about the sport and possibly into organized events. A few Pros do help by putting in courses and teaching clinics at schools and such. But overall I don't think that the Pros are a big factor in the growth of the sport.

Even us in the media do little to actually grow the player base of the sport. Like the pros, once a player is interested in disc golf we help fuel that excitement. VERY RARELY does someone who has NEVER heard of DG become interested because of a video they stumbled upon. Usually they have been exposed to it elsewhere first.

It sounds like some people want the PDGA to step away from running the NTs and focus on growth (schools, YMCA, parks dept). Frankly, I would be OK with that in the future. But I don't know if we are there yet. After only 1 year we don't know if the DGPT & DGWT will be sustainable. If the PDGA were to step away now and then the others fail, then we are left with no tour.

 

[Three Putt]

Is your first point self-fulfilling though? Like do the people who join the PDGA do so with the intent of being pro's because that's what is required for tournaments?

I mean I had a membership because I needed it to play in tournaments and worlds. I let it lapse because I don't play in tournaments and I don't need to subsidize those that do. But it the PDGA was still offering that sanctioning arm and worlds, while focusing on growing the sport I would be all over a lifetime membership. You would still have the same members who are there because of tournaments, because those people won't leave the competition but you will add a lot of members who then look at it as helping the sport, rather than helping the pros (example I always drop $10-15 at the concession stand when it goes to the youth sports my kids are playing, I never do at pro events).

Your second point comes along with your first. If the new DGPA (Disc Golf Players Association) came out and made a push to grow the game, offering themselves as a resource for schools and parks, and the people who want to get the game into schools and parks most of my league would join. Not because we have delusions of grandeur that we will turn pro and make all the money and nail all the babes, but because we would see that the Association was doing things to make all of Disc Golf better. Not just the pro game.


When all you do is poll a small group of the players you will get the answer they want, they have already self-selected as a small minority (the group that wants top-level competition in disc golf) so all their answer will serve that group. I would be more interested in a survey of all current and former members to see if the answer changed.

This kinda goes along with my experience. I was burned out by the end of 1999. I had found TDing to be a very unsatisfying experience. I still loved disc golf and still wanted to do something, but I wanted to run another PDGA event slightly less than I wanted to shove a hot fork in my eye socket. I reached out to the PDGA looking for something, ANYTHING I could do for them other than running PDGA sanctioned disc golf events. I was told no. PDGA events was what they did.

So I have continued playing, running leagues and small unsanctioned events and a small kids program. It is outside of the PDGA, though. I'm not a member anymore. I'm not doing anything to hurt the PDGA and they are not doing anything to hurt me, but we are not directly working together. I'm off on my own.

I'd love to not be on my own. I'd love to be part of something organized. Something bigger. Some sort of disc golf promotional origination that promoted course development and participation instead of competition. If it turned up somehow under the PDGA umbrella, that would be great. If it was a totally different organization, also fine. I'd be in.

The PDGA can say that there are no members who have my priorities, but I'm not a member because the PDGA told me it didn't have room for my priorities.

 

[Lazerface]

With all due respect, I think video coverage has little to nothing to do with growing the sport. Sure engaged disc golfers watch and enjoy coverage, but I would have to believe they are doing very little to do with exposing the sport to non disc golfers. Grass root media, local tournaments and new courses impact new player numbers more than videos...IMO.

Exactly. Stuff going viral like the Philo shot and the ESPN stuff helps, but in general when we are talking "reach" it seems people are referring to views on YouTube videos which are essentially made up of existing disc golfers/fans. The average non disc golfer has no interest in watching a major tournament on YouTube.

Lyle said it earlier in this forum. The PDGA's job is about laying groundwork and that to me means expanding reach to those who have not bee exposed to disc golf. The focus on schools and involving local communities is imperative. Local media involvement is essential when possible.

This conversation seems to be cart before the horse in most cases. "The PDGA needs to raise money and get mainstream sponsorship". No, the PDGA and it's members need to keep doing what there doing until disc golf, in the least, breaks the household name barrier, which it hasn't. If sponsorship from a large sports company or any company with a lot of capital is the goal, then the market, in terms of players and fans, has to grow from speaking in terms of "thousands" to "millions". I think the PDGA and it's members are doing a pretty good job of trying to make that happen in the past decade. Sponsorship is about 1 thing - brand recognition. You can only sell that by being able to present, with evidence, that their brand will be viewed by a considerable amount of people.

There is a reason people have been saying "it's about to happen" for 20 years. We are growing considerably without a doubt, but the number of non disc golfers who know what disc golf is and have an interest in (fans) is tiny in every practical sense. Growth in terms of PDGA members, local clubs, etc is very important, but it's not what gets us over the hump. It's fans, the general public. Darts and Bowling went through this phase a long time ago, but both those sports were played by millions recreationally long before a real professional tour with decent paid athletes ever existed. How long do you think there top athletes were waiting to "get paid" for them. Similar cases with snowboarding and skateboarding which are closer to disc golf in terms of age and culture.

What is more likely to happen is a more organic growth from within. As more courses are installed and more players are playing the major disc golf manufacturers will have more customers and therefore more capital. They will be able to afford a larger marketing campaign and will have an actual ROI for doing so. We sill start to see discs in major sporting goods stores more and more, rather than the couple of racks we see today. Disc golf companies will actually start to advertise and slowly but surely everyone will know what disc golf is. We will have more disc golf in schools and more young people will play. At some point, a real fan base will exist, players will be branded, and outside advertisers will take interest. Major tours with paid employees running events rather than volunteers will exist leading to rapid growth in the quality of events and a more centralized pro tour will develop. From there capitalism will just kind of do it's thing. If you think our Athletes will be millionaires in the next 5-10 years I think you are mistaken.

With all that said, I still say a well financed documentary on disc golf culture itself - it's history, it's players, the grind of the touring pro, the crazy comradery that exists, the characterizations of the top athletes from players like Nikko to Paul, all that stuff. If done right, it could be a very interesting film viewed by millions. Thanks to Netflix I have watched a ton of documentaries that were very intriguing about far less interesting subjects. Disc golf is super cool, and it's the culture and it's state of growth that make it so to the outsider, not the actual game. But yea, show them the game for sure and how legit the athletes really are. I just think something like that could jump start it a bit. But I'm a biased disc golfer.

The PDGA needs to keep on keeping on with a focus on exposure, especially to children. They need to partner with TDs and provide resources to help them reach out to their community and get local media involved when possible. They need to utilize social media to the fullest extent. However it can be done, they need to try and make running events, at least at the pro level - profitable. I know that sounds very capitalistic, but when we are taking about growth, it seems to me we are talking about $$$. Steve Dodge and Jussi are using their years of volunteer experience to try and make a living off running a tour. The more guys like this the better.

In summary, it's not a matter of if, but when. Disc golf will not recede into the shadows or remain the little niche sport that is, as much a I love that! But we are a long way from being "mainstream" or having a true professional tour with well compensated players. It will happen. If we build it, they will come.

 

[WillGrrr]

I appreciate this thoughtful discussion. I see many views well articulated.
I am considering whether to re-up membership, where I had to the last few years to help TD at Pittsburgh events. I am a forever AM, but thought supporting the club and the sport was worth it. I don't read the magazine because I can't relate to how awesome Paul and Paige are throwing. Rec 4 life.
I support the pros mostly with enthusiasm. $50/ year to be in the national organization feels OK, even if I don't play much in tournaments. I could wish there was a stronger outreach to youth and amateurs, but that's all money out of the PDGA wallet. My guess is that they hear this, yet are trying to monetize their rock stars as their prime directive.
2015 Worlds in PA required a giant amount of volunteer work. Pro Worlds doesn't happen without a huge number of volunteers. Think about that model, hopeful or content ams throwing their hours to a payout for the pro's.
I'm friends with a Hall of Famer who has dedicated so many hours to the sport--leagues, officership, EDGE, course-building, club support--all because he believed in the game, since the 80's.
PDGA has limited budget, and needs more money and exposure. Philo helped! But the sport will grow, is growing with the backing of ordinary duffers.

 

[JTacoma03]

That's an interesting comment.

So far as this relates to this thread, what type of individual do you think the PDGA will be looking for? Someone dynamic to step in and be more of a Steve Dodge figurehead to drive the PDGA tour forward, or somebody who can step back and work with the other tours? Is there any sort of vibe out there on how the PDGA BoD sees these other tours?

To be perfectly honest, the current pulse of the BoD is not something I know much about. I'm very interested to see who is given the reins. I doubt it will be any of the...personalities...that have dominated media/social media this past year. If I were the BoD those inherent conflicts of interest (that others are mentioning) would be a big negative to me.

If I were making the decision, the first thing I'd examine with the new regime would be to clearly define (from a policy, PR, and legal sense) what the NT and Major scene looks like. I don't think they have a clearly articulated long-term objective with their internal tour, so that needs to be dealt with first before addressing the roles of the private tours.

Just my .02

With all due respect, I think video coverage has little to nothing to do with growing the sport. Sure engaged disc golfers watch and enjoy coverage, but I would have to believe they are doing very little to do with exposing the sport to non disc golfers. Grass root media, local tournaments and new courses impact new player numbers more than videos...IMO.

I semi-agree with you actually. I don't think the media itself is the X factor, it's the catalyst that assists the X-factor. Here's the quick and dirty version of my perspective.

- our audience is hardcore disc golfers (nerds, fans, etc.), and you're right, not outsiders.
- our audience introduces those outsiders to the sport. It's that fervor and passion that makes the game relate-able.
- our media is the catalyst that vindicates, validates, and promotes en masse that passion.

So, I can't agree that we have "nothing to do with" growth. However without the fans, the media can't show lasting growth. Fans grow the sport, media shows the sports' growth.

We're the catalyst, the amplifier. Maybe you could reach 5 people before with your passion and proselytizing, but now with our help you personally can reach 30, 40, 50...and those people reach more people...blah blah blah.

Media is the altruistic version of a pyramid scheme, but our currency is recognition, not cash.

The PDGA needs to identify what their core goal is. Is it to grow the sport? Or is it to grow the Professional side of the sport?

100%

This is the very first question that needs to be addressed when the replacement is named. Be very clear about what the PDGA's goals will be going forward, so the rest of us who "work" in the game can understand what our relationship with the PDGA will be, and how we can contribute to the game most positively and effectively.

 

[Three Putt]

100%

This is the very first question that needs to be addressed when the replacement is named. Be very clear about what the PDGA's goals will be going forward, so the rest of us who "work" in the game can understand what our relationship with the PDGA will be, and how we can contribute to the game most positively and effectively.

Again, very interesting to hear from you. I guess I assumed this had happened, but things changed very rapidly last Fall. While it is not surprising that there is some confusion about who does what when right now, it is very important that it is worked out sometime in the very near future.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think there's a subtle misunderstanding what the PDGA has been doing as it relates to pros. I suspect it will continue to do so to support pros moving forward. In fact, Brian has stated that the PDGA doesn't exist to directly help pros make a living, or for that matter, manufacturers to financially survive. What Brian and especially his newer staff have been doing is working to present the game in a better, more professional manner at the highest level to help raise the bar for what promoters could present to potential sponsors.

Since the PDGA "owns" a few Major events and NTs, these events were the workshop to do this. It wasn't directly about getting more money for the pros but providing a better look and more resources available for those TDs like the tents, banners, equipment trailer and actual PDGA staffers to handle various tournament functions. Because most of those events are pro oriented, it may appear that the focus was primarily on the top pros even though all PDGA members who played in other divisions also benefited.

Note that pros do pay an additional $25 member fee and also higher per player tournament fees since they tend to play in higher tier events. So this extra income has been looped back to support pros a bit more than ams.

 

[zenbot]

In fact, Brian has stated that the PDGA doesn't exist to directly help pros make a living, or for that matter, manufacturers to financially survive. What Brian and especially his newer staff have been doing is working to present the game in a better, more professional manner at the highest level to help raise the bar for what promoters could present to potential sponsors.

I think this is the best strategy. Build a solid foundation and you can build a taller tower.