PDGA survey

[Three Putt]

Players do not NEED the PDGA

Care to elaborate? I really don't see how losing the PDGA would be a positive thing.

 

[denny ritner]

Care to elaborate? I really don't see how losing the PDGA would be a positive thing.

"Players Own the Game - No Sanctioning Required"

 

[biscoe]

"Players Own the Game - No Sanctioning Required"

Shorthand for "we take the rules and structure that the PDGA has built and don't have to do anything we don't want to." We have been through this before. Does Southern Nationals even exist anymore? (never mind- looks like 29 events this year in 4 states)

 

[denny ritner]

Shorthand for "we take the rules and structure that the PDGA has built and don't have to do anything we don't want to." We have been through this before. Does Southern Nationals even exist anymore? (never mind- looks like 29 events this year in 4 states)

The vast, vast, vast majority of ball golfers are not dues-paying members of the USGA.

Also, I'll actually be running one or more events in 2023 with an alternative set of rules.

 

[jenb]

The vast, vast, vast majority of ball golfers are not dues-paying members of the USGA.

Also, I'll actually be running one or more events in 2023 with an alternative set of rules.

Since TDs can choose not to offer particular divisions as long as they put it on the flyer, I've always thought it would be interesting to have a B or C tier tournament with no age protected divisions and no gender protected divisions except women's rec and novice. Then everything is just ratings based and pros can play am if their rating is low enough.

 

[Dcinmd]

"Players Own the Game - No Sanctioning Required"

Players do not own the courses, and neither does the PDGA.

 

[Three Putt]

Shorthand for "we take the rules and structure that the PDGA has built and don't have to do anything we don't want to." We have been through this before. Does Southern Nationals even exist anymore? (never mind- looks like 29 events this year in 4 states)

I saw a post a few weeks ago where Keith Bodin said that if they don't get volunteers to be on the board they will have to shut down. They were down to three people, and one of them is stepping down at the end of the year. So, they are still around but not doing well. Since disc golf in general is booming, the fact that they are not doing well now is not good.

 

[denny ritner]

Since TDs can choose not to offer particular divisions as long as they put it on the flyer, I've always thought it would be interesting to have a B or C tier tournament with no age protected divisions and no gender protected divisions except women's rec and novice. Then everything is just ratings based and pros can play am if their rating is low enough.

My next event will let players choose which set of tees they want to play from and then the competitions will be flighted and handicapped with optional cash buy-ins. No divisions.

 

[jenb]

Players do not NEED the PDGA, but the PDGA needs dollars.

Besides a uniform set of rules/ expectations, a major service provided by the PDGA is cheap event insurance. A lot (most?) of municipalities will not let a tournament go forward on their park courses without that kind of insurance, and it can be unavailable or too expensive without the PDGA.

 

[gingerandhoney]

This is 100% bull****. Our entire sport is being harmed by the PDGA board's mishandling of this issue (and several others). The players (the vast majority being cisgender men) fund the organization and are being taken for granted.

When will you be releasing the entire, raw survey data?

I am not releasing any data, I am not in control or possession of the data.
Assume for a second I would, which I don't. It would fly straight in the face of multiple privacy laws. Amongst which one that covers all of the EU. It's often referred to as GDPR

 

[denny ritner]

I am not releasing any data, I am not in control or possession of the data.
Assume for a second I would, which I don't. It would fly straight in the face of multiple privacy laws. Amongst which one that covers all of the EU. It's often referred to as GDPR

We're asking for anonymous summary data on the pertinent questions. We don't want data that has been been "normalized" to exclude "extreme" social/political viewpoints. We don't want data that has been excluded because respondents made a mockery of the second portion of the survey with random/nonsensical responses.

We do not want the PDGA to use its members as guinea pigs for a survey that was never intended to be used to inform policy decisions.

 

[ChrisWoj]

I am not releasing any data, I am not in control or possession of the data.
Assume for a second I would, which I don't. It would fly straight in the face of multiple privacy laws. Amongst which one that covers all of the EU. It's often referred to as GDPR

Assuming the data has been anonymized to remove identifying markers for individuals - such as IP addresses, location data, etc. - your assumption given the limited nature of the disclaimer at the start of the survey should be that the data resulting from the survey can and possibly will be shared. It would actually be considered best-practice for survey research for this to be done, as a way of providing an opportunity for others to validate any statistical outcomes that are discussed in the analysis in any published study. The only promise in the disclaimer is that "your name or other personal information will not be revealed."

I assume you're responding to his use of the phrase "entire, raw survey data" which could imply including identifying information but I feel like this needed to be made clear regardless.

 

[araytx]

Looks like said survey has closed ... and apparently was screened out and went to my spam folder. (it didn't have "PDGA" in the sender line, so I wasn't white-lighted by my service.) Therefore I wonder how many others had the same occur?

 

[biscoe]

Besides a uniform set of rules/ expectations, a major service provided by the PDGA is cheap event insurance. A lot (most?) of municipalities will not let a tournament go forward on their park courses without that kind of insurance, and it can be unavailable or too expensive without the PDGA.

PDGA insurance was a great deal in 2000 and is an insanely good deal today. I have also recently discovered that you can request the certificate to cover event setup days and practice days at no additional cost.

 

[biscoe]

The vast, vast, vast majority of ball golfers are not dues-paying members of the USGA.

Also, I'll actually be running one or more events in 2023 with an alternative set of rules.

The vast vast majority of disc golfers are not tournament players as well. I run some unsanctioned stuff as well but that doesn't mean that PDGA sanctioning is not a major attractant (possibly THE major attractant) for the tournament players which is really imo who we are talking about.

 

[dmoore1998]

Assuming the data has been anonymized to remove identifying markers for individuals - such as IP addresses, location data, etc. - your assumption given the limited nature of the disclaimer at the start of the survey should be that the data resulting from the survey can and possibly will be shared. It would actually be considered best-practice for survey research for this to be done, as a way of providing an opportunity for others to validate any statistical outcomes that are discussed in the analysis in any published study. The only promise in the disclaimer is that "your name or other personal information will not be revealed."

I assume you're responding to his use of the phrase "entire, raw survey data" which could imply including identifying information but I feel like this needed to be made clear regardless.

Right, "raw survey data" typically doesn't actually mean..."raw". It is scrubbed of personal info. It is raw meaning "not processed"...no removal of answers/participants, not put into some form of analysis, not compiled into meaningful data sets.

It is pretty standard practice in reputable surveys done for academic reasons. It's THE primary way you ensure whoever does the data analysis isn't manipulating the data to say what they want it to say rather than what it actually says (or at least to open the door to disagreement on how the analysis was done).

 

[biscoe]

I doubt it. Else the WPGA wouldn't have been getting away with it for years now. And the NFL would be bankrupted by ADA lawsuits. Players are not PDGA employees. And there are exceptions for the sports and entertainment industries. A casting director isn't required to audition black women for the role of George Washington.

Not sure what the WPGA is. If you mean the LPGA their membership voted in 2010 to allow trans players but none have managed to qualify for a Tour Card as of yet.

 

[dmoore1998]

Not sure what the WPGA is. If you mean the LPGA their membership voted in 2010 to allow trans players but none have managed to qualify for a Tour Card as of yet.

I don't follow a lot of LPGA stuff...but did they vote to allow "trans women" or "trans women who meet this specific criteria that applies only to trans women"? That could be a really big difference (i.e. you allow trans women you meet specific requirements, but the requirements are so stringent that most people don't want to bother).

 

[biscoe]

I don't follow a lot of LPGA stuff...but did they vote to allow "trans women" or "trans women who meet this specific criteria that applies only to trans women"? That could be a really big difference (i.e. you allow trans women you meet specific requirements, but the requirements are so stringent that most people don't want to bother).

I don't really follow it either, I really was just trying to figure out what the WPGA was at first. Apparently they have had a grand total of 2 try to go to Q school. article

 

[dmoore1998]

I don't really follow it either, I really was just trying to figure out what the WPGA was at first. Apparently they have had a grand total of 2 try to go to Q school. article

Thanks, that article shed at least a little light even with a cursory overview. one year of hormonal therapy and gender reassignment surgery. Also talks about sending lab tests (so some proof, which seems quite contrary to the PDGA stance).

A few quotes I found...notable...from the transgender woman in question:

"There is evidence that we do have an advantage," said Lancaster, "especially if going through a testosterone puberty like we did."

Those advantages, she continued, are not so easily quantified in skill sports like golf, however, where distance is only one aspect of the game.

"It obviously didn't dissuade me from taking a run at it," said Lancaster. "But I never got much pushback because I just didn't play as well as the other elite players. I was just too old."

The article goes on and on, talking to/about several transgender female golfers. Multiple acknowledgements by them throughout the article that a biological advantage exists. Seems to be a mix of "yes there's some biological power advantage...BUT...not nearly to the point of a cisgender male...AND...power is only a portion of the game so overall advantage is minimal if at all". Now, just because they are transgender women doesn't mean they know anything about biology either...so take that for what it's worth.

Interesting article, not particularly insightful into the PDGA issue (IMO).