PDGA Website Scoring no longer requires players to sign their scorecard

[txmxer]

when it's raining I also put my phone in a ziploc bag and would prefer to not have to take it out of the zippered pocket of my grip bag at all unless absolutely necessary, but it does seem like a (preferably new) ziploc bag should be fine for this purpose. I was also just thinking, it might be possible to use a phone that has no mobile data if there is wifi available to upload the scores so maybe that's what I would default to. but otherwise the requirement for a phone is actually not just for a phone but a phone + some sort of plan that includes data. which to a lot of us is no biggie but still in this day and age should not always be assumed people have access to IMO

As of now, you always have the option of paper scorecard.

 

[BillFleming]

...but, yeah, I'm following this thread here. I like how you had to enter your PDGA# at the end of a sanctioned round to signify you're cool with your score. Don't understand why they'd do away with this. Now it opens the possibility of a bunch of cards being submitted without all the players giving it the okay.

Always check your scores. I learned the hard way in the 2000 Michigan state finals when I trusted someone else. Still made the cut in Am-1 after the penalty, but was the last to do so by one stroke. I was shaking when it happened thinking I'd blown it. Lesson learned.

Fast forward to about two years ago in a tourney in MA-40 and a guy in his first ever tournament. I said "par" on a hole while he was keeping score and he thought I said "4" instead of the three I got. We fixed it before we turned it in. I knew I had shot X but he had me down for X+1 at the end and it took a good while to figure out which hole was in question. "I am certain I had a 3 on this hole here," and sure enough he thought had said "4" when I had said "par." It's all good.

This is one of the reasons that I ask them for the number when I'm keeping score. I'll have someone say "Bogie" and I'll reply "so a 4?" (or whatever bogie is for that hole). Once I did have a player correct his score because of that....it was a par 4, but he thought it was a par 3....so he said bogie when he really got par....when I responded to him "so a 5?"....he realized the issue and we got the score correct.

 

[araytx]

lol why do you play in the rain

Uh because I'm not a meteorologist.

OOops, they aren't so good at predicting it either!

lol

 

[coupe]

Uh because I'm not a meteorologist.

OOops, they aren't so good at predicting it either!

lol

Actually, they're GREAT at predicting it; it's their ACCURACY that suukkks.

 

[glassila]

Back to the original post about scores being submitted without the players reviewing them...

The rule doesn't say anything about players reviewing the scorecard, but it sure seems like it's implied.

808 G.2. If the total score or any hole score is incorrect, improperly recorded, or missing, two penalty throws are added to the correct total score. Those penalty throws are not added when the score has been adjusted for other violations determined after the player had submitted an otherwise correct scorecard.

How else could a player see if their score for a hole is missing unless they reviewed the scorecard?

 

[dmoore1998]

Back to the original post about scores being submitted without the players reviewing them...

The rule doesn't say anything about players reviewing the scorecard, but it sure seems like it's implied.

808 G.2. If the total score or any hole score is incorrect, improperly recorded, or missing, two penalty throws are added to the correct total score. Those penalty throws are not added when the score has been adjusted for other violations determined after the player had submitted an otherwise correct scorecard.

How else could a player see if their score for a hole is missing unless they reviewed the scorecard?

And with no penalty at all for the scorekeeper...just imagine how horribly sideways this can go. There are 5 people in my division, we're all on the same card. I am the scorekeeper. I either type in the wrong score or leave a score missing for everyone but me. Everyone else gets a 2-stroke penalty based off of my "mistake". As soon as the round is over, I submit the scores without giving anyone an opportunity to review.

 

[araytx]

And with no penalty at all for the scorekeeper...just imagine how horribly sideways this can go. There are 5 people in my division, we're all on the same card. I am the scorekeeper. I either type in the wrong score or leave a score missing for everyone but me. Everyone else gets a 2-stroke penalty based off of my "mistake". As soon as the round is over, I submit the scores without giving anyone an opportunity to review.

The point many are making is that what you're saying isn't an issue BECAUSE of pdga livescoring. It's with the score keeper. The same could happen just as you described with paper/pencil.

 

[dmoore1998]

The point many are making is that what you're saying isn't an issue BECAUSE of pdga livescoring. It's with the score keeper. The same could happen just as you described with paper/pencil.

It could. The issue isn't with PDGA live scoring necessarily, the issue is with the PDGA as usual having no understanding of basic rules and procedures.

The difference though is that if my scorekeeper is using paper, i can literally follow them around and tell the TD as they are handing it over that I want to see the score before it is submitted to review it. If they use PDGA live scoring and they submit the score as we walk off the 18th hole, I can't do anything to force a review before it gets submitted. I've got a slightly better chance with paper in that case.

The other difference is that the app HAD the protection of requiring a review signoff...and then did away with it. But yes, the bigger issue is the PDGA's gross misunderstanding of good policies and procedures. All of that is even more annoying though given it's THEIR app, and then they changed their app to be worse on purpose.

 

[ru4por]

It could. The issue isn't with PDGA live scoring necessarily, the issue is with the PDGA as usual having no understanding of basic rules and procedures.

The difference though is that if my scorekeeper is using paper, i can literally follow them around and tell the TD as they are handing it over that I want to see the score before it is submitted to review it. If they use PDGA live scoring and they submit the score as we walk off the 18th hole, I can't do anything to force a review before it gets submitted. I've got a slightly better chance with paper in that case.

The other difference is that the app HAD the protection of requiring a review signoff...and then did away with it. But yes, the bigger issue is the PDGA's gross misunderstanding of good policies and procedures. All of that is even more annoying though given it's THEIR app, and then they changed their app to be worse on purpose.

Meh.....99%+ of the PDGA rules and competition guidelines are very good. I mean, not to deter you from PDGA bashing, but I see blanket statements condemning the body of their work, kind of hyperbolic.

I agree with the idea, that I have more time to get the scorecard and review it, if it is being walked up to tournament central.

 

[coupe]

The other difference is that the app HAD the protection of requiring a review signoff...and then did away with it.

Not exactly meaningful protection if the app didn't prevent a someone from signing off for another player on the card. (PS: It didn't.)

 

[BillFleming]

It could. The issue isn't with PDGA live scoring necessarily, the issue is with the PDGA as usual having no understanding of basic rules and procedures.

The difference though is that if my scorekeeper is using paper, i can literally follow them around and tell the TD as they are handing it over that I want to see the score before it is submitted to review it. If they use PDGA live scoring and they submit the score as we walk off the 18th hole, I can't do anything to force a review before it gets submitted. I've got a slightly better chance with paper in that case.

The other difference is that the app HAD the protection of requiring a review signoff...and then did away with it. But yes, the bigger issue is the PDGA's gross misunderstanding of good policies and procedures. All of that is even more annoying though given it's THEIR app, and then they changed their app to be worse on purpose.

In one case you can follow them around to the TD and say you didn't get to check your score.
In the other case, you can go up to the TD and say you didn't get to check your score (the TD has the ability to fix scores in PDGA Live Scoring).

In both cases, the scores had been turned in - but you let the TD know that you wanted to check yours and weren't "permitted" to do so.

((Although, with Live Scoring, you could follow along in the app and see what is being entered for you)).

 

[dmoore1998]

Not exactly meaningful protection if the app didn't prevent a someone from signing off for another player on the card. (PS: It didn't.)

It didn't, but any argument of "well that rule didn't stop people from opening committing fraud" is going to apply to most things right? At minimum, it was a prompt to remind people to have their card check. We have rules about what division you can play in given your rating, but that doesn't stop people who want to sign up with fake names. It's not a foolproof method, but it was a move in the right direction

 

[Cgkdisc]

Finger whipping, the new tech pencil whipping scam.

 

[dmoore1998]

Meh.....99%+ of the PDGA rules and competition guidelines are very good. I mean, not to deter you from PDGA bashing, but I see blanket statements condemning the body of their work, kind of hyperbolic.

I agree with the idea, that I have more time to get the scorecard and review it, if it is being walked up to tournament central.

I think in general that players do a very good job of taking the rules and mentally changing how they are written so that they make sense. For example, the entire "courtesy" section...pretty much everyone ignores the use of the word "may" and substitutes "is likely to" mentally...because following the letter of the rule would be ridiculous. If following the rules, everyone would watch everyone's feet and would have a stopwatch running on every throw. Things go smoothly because the players have a better understanding of what makes sense while playing disc golf than the PDGA does of reducing those understandings to a set of properly worded rules.

I think the body of their work is actually pretty terrible, but my standard may be higher because I do a bit of technical writing where words actually matter and where being clear is important. Some of the issue is with the rules themselves (for example, not having a rule where people assent to their score is terrible), but a lot of it is the actual writing of policy. There are words being used they clearly don't mean because nobody with any common sense who put thought into it would mean those words (again, like "may").

The players themselves do a pretty good job of taking the actual rules and instead of doing what they say, doing what makes sense and is logical (and frankly, doing what the rule-writers probably meant even though it's definitely not what they actually wrote). That's not a good sign for the quality of the written rules and procedures.

 

[glassila]

I think in general that players do a very good job of taking the rules and mentally changing how they are written so that they make sense. For example, the entire "courtesy" section...pretty much everyone ignores the use of the word "may" and substitutes "is likely to" mentally...because following the letter of the rule would be ridiculous. If following the rules, everyone would watch everyone's feet and would have a stopwatch running on every throw. Things go smoothly because the players have a better understanding of what makes sense while playing disc golf than the PDGA does of reducing those understandings to a set of properly worded rules.

The word "may" appears in the Courtesy section once.
812.A.4 A player must not: Leave equipment where it may distract other players or interfere with a thrown disc.

Do you really think players would do things differently if the rule said: A player must not: Leave equipment where it is likely to distract other players or interfere with a thrown disc.?

I get that you don't like the PDGA's Rules, but if you are using this an example of a badly written rule...:doh:

 

[dmoore1998]

The word "may" appears in the Courtesy section once.
812.A.4 A player must not: Leave equipment where it may distract other players or interfere with a thrown disc.

Do you really think players would do things differently if the rule said: A player must not: Leave equipment where it is likely to distract other players or interfere with a thrown disc.?



I get that you don't like the PDGA's Rules, but if you are using this an example of a badly written rule...:doh:

It's "might", had to look it up to see the actual wording:

A player must not:
Throw if the throw might injure someone or distract another player; or,


It's the simplest example to use. The PDGA has written a rule that if anyone actually followed it, nobody could play in PDGA sanctioned events. Instead, we all see the rule, shake our heads, choose to collectively ignore it, and move on.

There's little point in going beyond such an abysmal writing of a rule. If you cook a meal and give someone food poisoning, there's little reason to go into whether I felt the vegetables were oversalted to prove you're a poor cook. If your disc golf rules include a rule that means you can't play disc golf...there's no reason to go into all the poor wordings and rules that we all collectively choose to ignore because they're so horrendous.

 

[krupicka]

A player must not:
Throw if the throw might injure someone or distract another player; or,


It's the simplest example to use. The PDGA has written a rule that if anyone actually followed it, nobody could play in PDGA sanctioned events. Instead, we all see the rule, shake our heads, choose to collectively ignore it, and move on.

Of all the rules to ignore, you choose a common sense rule for safety. I hope I'm not on the card in front of you.

 

[txmxer]

This is one of the reasons that I ask them for the number when I'm keeping score. I'll have someone say "Bogie" and I'll reply "so a 4?" (or whatever bogie is for that hole). Once I did have a player correct his score because of that....it was a par 4, but he thought it was a par 3....so he said bogie when he really got par....when I responded to him "so a 5?"....he realized the issue and we got the score correct.

Great point.

 

[krupicka]

When I was learning the ropes of playing an event it was drilled into my head:
Scorekeeper: Mike, what did you get on hole three?
Mike: four
Scorekeeper: Mike got a four. Ray, what did you get on hole three?
Ray: Birdie.
Scorekeeper: Ray is that a two?
Ray: Yes
Scorekeeper: Ray got a two.

 

[WD09]

PDGA Live Scoring now allows more than one player on the same card to keep score for the card. In the tournament I played last weekend, we had at least two players keeping score through PDGA each round. During the final round, three of us did it. If both (or all) players on the card do not enter the same scores for every player on a hole, a screen appears with a notification that the scores don't match. This means that everyone talks it out and discrepancies get corrected immediately, before the next hole is played and while everyone remembers what just happened.

I like this new system. In my experience, it makes things run more smoothly.