PDGA Website Scoring no longer requires players to sign their scorecard

[dmoore1998]

Of all the rules to ignore, you choose a common sense rule for safety. I hope I'm not on the card in front of you.

You have to ignore that rule. You always "might" injure someone or distract another player. If you don't ignore that rule you can't play disc golf. So not to worry, unless you're choosing to ignore that rule, you won't be on a card at all because you wouldn't sign up.

 

[dmoore1998]

When I was learning the ropes of playing an event it was drilled into my head:
Scorekeeper: Mike, what did you get on hole three?
Mike: four
Scorekeeper: Mike got a four. Ray, what did you get on hole three?
Ray: Birdie.
Scorekeeper: Ray is that a two?
Ray: Yes
Scorekeeper: Ray got a two.

I'm honestly surprised anyone uses "birdie, par, etc" anymore with disc golf. Maybe it's a regional thing, but around here there's a whole lot of "everything is just a par 3, ignore the signs" when playing casually. Pretty much the only time I know what par a hole even is in a real round is if I'm keeping score because I've gotten so accustomed to not looking for it (and particularly with the...variety...of what constitutes a par 4 or 5...saying the number over the score relative to par seems like a definite best-practice).

 

[KillerKoala777]

You have to ignore that rule. You always "might" injure someone or distract another player. If you don't ignore that rule you can't play disc golf. So not to worry, unless you're choosing to ignore that rule, you won't be on a card at all because you wouldn't sign up.

I think you are interpreting 'might' a little strongly. A meteor might hit me today, the odds are not quite zero. But realistically, I will never get even close to being hit by a meteor. Anything might happen. The colloquial use of might really just means "if there is a reasonable chance".

If the fairway is clear, sure someone might run out of the woods at the exact moment you throw, but realistically, you aren't going to injure someone. Therefore I am not ignoring that rule when I throw into a clear fairway.

 

[Steve West]

You have to ignore that rule. You always "might" injure someone or distract another player. If you don't ignore that rule you can't play disc golf. So not to worry, unless you're choosing to ignore that rule, you won't be on a card at all because you wouldn't sign up.

So if you ignore that rule, does that mean you can throw when it definitely will injure someone?

 

[dmoore1998]

So if you ignore that rule, does that mean you can throw when it definitely will injure someone?

No, to my point above, it means people substitute their own rule (as others have noted they do). They don't throw if it is likely to injure someone...or don't throw when it is unreasonable...etc.

I think the 2nd half of that rule is far more egregious in terms of the wording though. If it might distract another player. I know players who can't see a a leaf on the ground without being distracted. How is anyone going to accurately judge another player's propensity for distraction?

 

[araytx]

It could. The issue isn't with PDGA live scoring necessarily, the issue is with the PDGA as usual having no understanding of basic rules and procedures.

The difference though is that if my scorekeeper is using paper, i can literally follow them around and tell the TD as they are handing it over that I want to see the score before it is submitted to review it. If they use PDGA live scoring and they submit the score as we walk off the 18th hole, I can't do anything to force a review before it gets submitted. I've got a slightly better chance with paper in that case.

The other difference is that the app HAD the protection of requiring a review signoff...and then did away with it. But yes, the bigger issue is the PDGA's gross misunderstanding of good policies and procedures. All of that is even more annoying though given it's THEIR app, and then they changed their app to be worse on purpose.

PDGA Live Scoring now allows more than one player on the same card to keep score for the card. In the tournament I played last weekend, we had at least two players keeping score through PDGA each round. During the final round, three of us did it. If both (or all) players on the card do not enter the same scores for every player on a hole, a screen appears with a notification that the scores don't match. This means that everyone talks it out and discrepancies get corrected immediately, before the next hole is played and while everyone remembers what just happened.

I like this new system. In my experience, it makes things run more smoothly.

So, WD, are you saying that the PDGA live scoring system (when used properly) is BETTER than the old pen/paper system??

Sorry, dmoore, I have to agree with WD. The complaint you stated was a reach. I still contend that anything that you mentioned with the live scoring system can hap with the pen/paper system.

AND, most importantly, you keep talking about the PDGA as a "them". It's not. It's an us. We are the players, the PDGA leadership responds to players probably as much as they can, much better than many organizations, and those are our rules, our competitions standards, and our application for live scoring. We. Us. Our.


Nearly all the changes, including those t the scoring system, came about through informal petitioning by players not the "almighty" Board or "almighty" RC or almighty "whatever." I also disagree there. Given the colossal job, the limited resources and all other things considered, the PDGA is good relatively great job at the things they are supposed to be doing.

 

[dmoore1998]

AND, most importantly, you keep talking about the PDGA as a "them". It's not. It's an us. We are the players, the PDGA leadership responds to players probably as much as they can, much better than many organizations, and those are our rules, our competitions standards, and our application for live scoring. We. Us. Our.


Nearly all the changes, including those t the scoring system, came about through informal petitioning by players not the "almighty" Board or "almighty" RC or almighty "whatever." I also disagree there. Given the colossal job, the limited resources and all other things considered, the PDGA is good relatively great job at the things they are supposed to be doing.

Are you the one who changed the PDGA app? If not, then it's not a "we" or "us". Someone changed it, it wasn't me.

My bar for the PDGA is pretty low. In this case, I'm just saying "don't make a change that makes things worse when anyone who spends 5 seconds thinking about it and who has connected brain cells will clearly know it is worse". Change to IMPROVE things can take time, it takes resources, etc. Simply leaving things as they are without making changes to make things worse doesn't typically require that. It just requires some common sense and a willingness to use your brain.

Paper vs app I don't necessarily care all that much about...it would be irrelevant completely to me if they had a simple rule that golf has had for a very long time which works...players must positively assent to their score being accurate. The app did that...at which point they decided "makes too much sense, better make the process worse" for some unfathomable reason.

 

[ru4por]

Are you the one who changed the PDGA app? If not, then it's not a "we" or "us". Someone changed it, it wasn't me.

My bar for the PDGA is pretty low. In this case, I'm just saying "don't make a change that makes things worse when anyone who spends 5 seconds thinking about it and who has connected brain cells will clearly know it is worse". Change to IMPROVE things can take time, it takes resources, etc. Simply leaving things as they are without making changes to make things worse doesn't typically require that. It just requires some common sense and a willingness to use your brain.

Paper vs app I don't necessarily care all that much about...it would be irrelevant completely to me if they had a simple rule that golf has had for a very long time which works...players must positively assent to their score being accurate. The app did that...at which point they decided "makes too much sense, better make the process worse" for some unfathomable reason.

An awful lot of PDGA vitriol for someone who has been a member for a minute. Problems without solutions. Complaints with no interest in change. Criticism without intention of helping.

The rule committee is always looking for people of esteem, in which you seem to hold yourself.

Shrug.....perhaps you have already reached out to the rules committee to offer your suggestions for improvement.

 

[BillFleming]

Are you the one who changed the PDGA app? If not, then it's not a "we" or "us". Someone changed it, it wasn't me.

My bar for the PDGA is pretty low. In this case, I'm just saying "don't make a change that makes things worse when anyone who spends 5 seconds thinking about it and who has connected brain cells will clearly know it is worse". Change to IMPROVE things can take time, it takes resources, etc. Simply leaving things as they are without making changes to make things worse doesn't typically require that. It just requires some common sense and a willingness to use your brain.

Paper vs app I don't necessarily care all that much about...it would be irrelevant completely to me if they had a simple rule that golf has had for a very long time which works...players must positively assent to their score being accurate. The app did that...at which point they decided "makes too much sense, better make the process worse" for some unfathomable reason.

Regarding the bolded part....

No it didn't....

All the app used to do was require that SOMEONE enter each player's last name or PDGA number to acknowledge the score. The app didn't care WHO did that as long as it was done. I was in a tournament where on the final hole, we each told the person doing PDGA Live scoring our scores....picked up our discs and bags....a player asked to see his final score and the scorer said he already confirmed and submitted them. His explanation was that it was how it was done in other groups he played with.

So, the app never required players to positively assent to their score being accurate. Never.

I believe the PDGA removed the option from the app because people believed that it required each player to personally acknowledge their score when it didn't.....so it was mis-leading.

((In the situation that I used above, the scorer apologized and said that if we had any issues with the scores, he would go to the TD with us and take the blame. Our scores were all correct so there wasn't any issue)).

We have the ability to notice a wrong score, go to the TD and report the issue and that it was submitted without our confirmation of the score. It is like a rules question....the TD will determine what happened and take any corrective action needed.

Ultimately, we are responsible for our scores....we have the ability to check what is entered on a paper scorecard by looking at it....we have the ability to check what is entered on an app (uDisc or PDGA Live Scoring) by opening the app and following the scoring.

 

[WD09]

So, WD, are you saying that the PDGA live scoring system (when used properly) is BETTER than the old pen/paper system??

In every PDGA tourney round I have played, going back 15 years, all the players have confirmed their scores before we turned in the card. That happened with paper and it is happening with the app. Idk if my region or division or age or what has caused this, but I have never had the experience of a card being turned it without everyone looking at it and agreeing to his score.

In these last couple of years with the app and a UDisc or paper backup, we all double-checked both and submitted it on the PDGA app. Now with the ability for more than one player on the card to use the PDGA app throughout the round, the process goes even faster. But every round I have played, all the players still gathered around and reviewed and agreed to the scores before they were submitted.

Yes, I like this system better.

It also eliminates the "you or your card mate added up your score and got 58, but the TD double-checked it and you got 59, so now you get 59 plus a penalty" phenomenon.

 

[TurnedOver]

The next time the PDGA makes a change like this, they should publish the reason for the change.

 

[dmoore1998]

An awful lot of PDGA vitriol for someone who has been a member for a minute. Problems without solutions. Complaints with no interest in change. Criticism without intention of helping.

The rule committee is always looking for people of esteem, in which you seem to hold yourself.

Shrug.....perhaps you have already reached out to the rules committee to offer your suggestions for improvement.

I've already provided a solution. They need to hire someone with a basic understanding of logic, language, and procedural writing.

Actually, you're hit the nail on the head. The PDGA wants people of "esteem" rather than people who are good at their jobs. Different strokes for different folks I guess. You think esteem is important, I think competence at the job is important.

 

[dmoore1998]

Regarding the bolded part....

No it didn't....

All the app used to do was require that SOMEONE enter each player's last name or PDGA number to acknowledge the score. The app didn't care WHO did that as long as it was done. I was in a tournament where on the final hole, we each told the person doing PDGA Live scoring our scores....picked up our discs and bags....a player asked to see his final score and the scorer said he already confirmed and submitted them. His explanation was that it was how it was done in other groups he played with.

So, the app never required players to positively assent to their score being accurate. Never.

I believe the PDGA removed the option from the app because people believed that it required each player to personally acknowledge their score when it didn't.....so it was mis-leading.

((In the situation that I used above, the scorer apologized and said that if we had any issues with the scores, he would go to the TD with us and take the blame. Our scores were all correct so there wasn't any issue)).

We have the ability to notice a wrong score, go to the TD and report the issue and that it was submitted without our confirmation of the score. It is like a rules question....the TD will determine what happened and take any corrective action needed.

Ultimately, we are responsible for our scores....we have the ability to check what is entered on a paper scorecard by looking at it....we have the ability to check what is entered on an app (uDisc or PDGA Live Scoring) by opening the app and following the scoring.

Here's where I got that from, you said:

Digital - even when it "required a player to confirm" it really didn't require that at all. All it required was a person to enter the player's last name or PDGA number. The score keeper could do that without ever showing it to the player.

When you put "required a player to confirm" in quotes, I'm assuming it said that the player should confirm it. That's a rule the app had. That doesn't mean people can't violate that rule. I understand it's not a 100% safeguard. Almost no rules are going to be 100% safeguarded. No different than a rule that says you can't footfault...having the rule on the books doesn't prevent people from breaking it.

So what did the app say before they removed it? What's important is what it said...not whether someone could commit fraud by entering your name for you.

 

[coupe]

The next time the PDGA makes a change like this, they should publish the reason for the change.

The change happened in 1997 when the sentence "Players whose scorecards are turned in unsigned accept responsibility for the scores reported," was added to 804.03 Scoring, which effectively changed the previous requirement that players sign the scorecard to certify the entire scorecard was correct into a pro forma option to certify that their individual score was correct:

1990 PDGA Rule Book

803.03.D At the end of the round, all players and the scorekeeper will sign their scorecard(s) indicating that all players and the scorekeeper attest to the accuracy of the scores on each hole and the total scores. However, total scores are not official until posted by the tournament director

.

1997 PDGA Rule Book

804.03.D At the end of the round, each player shall sign his or her scorecard indicating that he or she attests to the accuracy of the score on each hole and the total score. If all the players of the group agree that a hole score was recorded in error, the score may be changed prior to the scorecard being turned in. Players whose scorecards are turned in unsigned accept responsibility for the scores reported.

[See also, 804.03.E in the PDGA Rules Changes Timeline.]

That was eliminated in its entirety in the 2018 rules update:

2018 PDGA Rule Book

A. The player listed first bears primary responsibility for picking up the group's scorecard(s).
B. Players in the group keep score proportionally, unless a player or a scorekeeper volunteers to keep score more and that is acceptable to all players in the group.
C. After each hole has been completed, the scorekeeper records the score for each player in the group in a manner that makes each score clear to every player in the group. Any warnings or penalty throws are to be noted along with the score for the hole.
D. The score for a player on a hole is the total number of throws, including penalty throws. The total score for the round is the sum of all hole scores, plus any additional penalty throws. The use of anything other than a number as a score (including the lack of a score) is subject to penalty as described below in 808.G.2.
E. If there is disagreement about the score a player reports, the group reviews the hole and attempts to arrive at the correct score. If the group cannot reach consensus on the player's score, they seek the help of an Official or the Director as soon as is practical. If all players in the group agree that a score is incorrect, the score may be corrected before the scorecard is turned in.
F. All players are responsible for returning their scorecards within 30 minutes of the completion of a round, which is when the last group on the course has completed their final hole and has had reasonable time to turn in their scorecard. Failure to turn in a scorecard on time results in the addition of two penalty throws to the score of each player listed on the late scorecard.
G. After the scorecard has been turned in, the total score as recorded is final, except for the following circumstances:
1. Penalty throws may be added or removed up until the Director declares the tournament over, or all awards have been distributed.
2. If the total score is incorrect, improperly recorded, or missing, two penalty throws are added to the correct total score. Those penalty throws are not added when the score has been adjusted for other violations determined after the player had turned in an otherwise correct scorecard.

Personally, I think that updating the livescoring app to bring it into conformity with the current rulebook is a GOOD thing.

 

[dmoore1998]

Personally, I think that updating the livescoring app to bring it into conformity with the current rulebook is a GOOD thing.

Good history of the rule. I do think consistency is important...I'd just always rather see inconsistencies corrected by updating the poor method to the better method, rather than downgrading the better method to match the poor.

 

[coupe]

Good history of the rule. I do think consistency is important...I'd just always rather see inconsistencies corrected by updating the poor method to the better method, rather than downgrading the better method to match the poor.

The "method" you're pimping for hasn't been required since 1997, and nothing in the intervening 25 years has conclusively demonstrated that having players sign their scorecard is "better" than the current practice, which still affords players who desire to review their cards before it's turned in the opportunity to do so.

 

[dmoore1998]

The "method" you're pimping for hasn't been required since 1997, and nothing in the intervening 25 years has conclusively demonstrated that having players sign their scorecard is "better" than the current practice, which still affords players who desire to review their cards before it's turned in the opportunity to do so.

No it doesn't, even in this small group we've now heard multiple instances of scores being submitted without affording players an opportunity to review the card.

 

[BillFleming]

Here's where I got that from, you said:

Digital - even when it "required a player to confirm" it really didn't require that at all. All it required was a person to enter the player's last name or PDGA number. The score keeper could do that without ever showing it to the player.

When you put "required a player to confirm" in quotes, I'm assuming it said that the player should confirm it. That's a rule the app had. That doesn't mean people can't violate that rule. I understand it's not a 100% safeguard. Almost no rules are going to be 100% safeguarded. No different than a rule that says you can't footfault...having the rule on the books doesn't prevent people from breaking it.

So what did the app say before they removed it? What's important is what it said...not whether someone could commit fraud by entering your name for you.

I don't have screenshots, so all I can go by is memory.....as a scorekeeper using the PDGA Live Scoring, I recall was you clicked on each players score and it said Confirm score by entering player's PDGA number or last name. I don't recall anything in the app ever saying the player had to confirm their score....just that the number or last name had to be entered, but that anyone could do it. I would be surprised if there had been wording that each player had to personally confirm their score on another person's phone....this change happened during the beginning of Covid....people really didn't want others touching their phone and even without Covid, there are people who don't want anyone else touching their phone. And the PDGA couldn't force someone to have every one else on their card touch/handle their phone.

 

[glassila]

Since a scoring error results in a penalty for the player, without a doubt the onus is on the player to make sure the scorecard is correct whether it be paper or digital.

At the end of the round every player can and should say to the scorekeeper, "can I see the card" and verify his or her score.

IF the scorekeeper says "No, you cannot see the scorecard" then we have a problem.

 

[TurnedOver]

The change happened in 1997 when the sentence "Players whose scorecards are turned in unsigned accept responsibility for the scores reported," was added to 804.03 Scoring, which effectively changed the previous requirement that players sign the scorecard to certify the entire scorecard was correct into a pro forma option to certify that their individual score was correct:

1990 PDGA Rule Book

.

1997 PDGA Rule Book



[See also, 804.03.E in the PDGA Rules Changes Timeline.]

That was eliminated in its entirety in the 2018 rules update:

2018 PDGA Rule Book



Personally, I think that updating the livescoring app to bring it into conformity with the current rulebook is a GOOD thing.

Thanks for posting all of this!

Users should be notified of changes to the live scoring app with the reasons why.

Or the PDGA can just wait for this forum's users to explain why.