Pencil Whippers - How do you deal with them?

[Bamm]

For PDGA events they need to make this model the standard...

Everyone in the group gets a scorecard.
Everyone keeps everyone's score (in the same name order on all cards)
At end of round everyone compares everyone's scores.
This way you make sure there is no cheating.
All players in group have to go to the TD after round and turn in one card that is correct.
And it makes it easier for the TD to check cards, because there should not be any errors in scoring as the group just checked all 3-5 cards to makes sure everyone has the same score.

I have seen this used a few times and it is the only way you can stop people from cheating.

Hard to beat this setup. :thmbup:

 

[scarpfish]

If I can do it in my head (for 4 players), then someone can do it on a counter. It's not that hard, and it's certainly easier than relying on memory.

I do agree it is just another thing to keep track of and we are supposed to rely on fair play and everybody being able to remember their own throws, which we know doesn't happen all the time.

Just because you can do that doesn't mean everybody can. And if people are too fog minded to keep track of their own throws, how are they going to keep track of everybody else's?

Personally, I want to be concentrating on my game, and not having to worry about properly operating a device while watching my opponents.

 

[Thumber]

considering how often this has been an issue in the past (maybe twice in my career) i am not going to start getting into overly complicated procedures

We have a couple of tournys here where each player keeps track score for another player and it works well

 

[ltwomey]

Sounds like Will

 

[mudslinger]

Sounds like Will

I just can't seem to FACTOR in exactly who it could be either

 

[chris deitzel]

Keeping track of someone elses score does not work either. That person can record your scores wrong.

I am convinced that the only method that works is what I said earlier about everyone keeps everyones score. I actually know a known-cheater who withdrew from a tournament when they heard this format was being used. It is the only way to protect everyone in the group. It eliminates scoring errors, and it eliminates people saying or writing down the wrong score. And everyone in the group has to announce their score for everyone to hear and write down.

This really needs to be a new PDGA standard.

 

[bradharris]

Keeping track of someone elses score does not work either. That person can record your scores wrong.

I am convinced that the only method that works is what I said earlier about everyone keeps everyones score. I actually know a known-cheater who withdrew from a tournament when they heard this format was being used. It is the only way to protect everyone in the group. It eliminates scoring errors, and it eliminates people saying or writing down the wrong score. And everyone in the group has to announce their score for everyone to hear and write down.

This really needs to be a new PDGA standard.

This is what the USDGC does and it works very well. It would be an easy system to implement even at the lowest level tournaments. If I ever have an opportunity to TD an event, I will do this.

 

[gdub58]

Keeping track of someone elses score does not work either. That person can record your scores wrong.

I am convinced that the only method that works is what I said earlier about everyone keeps everyones score. I actually know a known-cheater who withdrew from a tournament when they heard this format was being used. It is the only way to protect everyone in the group. It eliminates scoring errors, and it eliminates people saying or writing down the wrong score. And everyone in the group has to announce their score for everyone to hear and write down.

This really needs to be a new PDGA standard.

This would work, but it's overkill. Keep your own score and one other player's score - that's enough.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm also of a mind that it's overkill to use multiple scorecards, for most tournaments and most divisions. Keep an extra if you're playing with anyone who's suspect.

It makes more sense at big events in the open division, where there's more at stake than a little extra plastic payout that most of us are competing for.

 

[Stan McDaniel]

Keeping track of someone elses score does not work either. That person can record your scores wrong.

I am convinced that the only method that works is what I said earlier about everyone keeps everyones score. I actually know a known-cheater who withdrew from a tournament when they heard this format was being used. It is the only way to protect everyone in the group. It eliminates scoring errors, and it eliminates people saying or writing down the wrong score. And everyone in the group has to announce their score for everyone to hear and write down.

This really needs to be a new PDGA standard.

Second!

 

[gdub58]

I'm also of a mind that it's overkill to use multiple scorecards, for most tournaments and most divisions. Keep an extra if you're playing with anyone who's suspect.

It makes more sense at big events in the open division, where there's more at stake than a little extra plastic payout that most of us are competing for.

If it's a sanctioned tournament of any kind best practices should be employed. All divisions too - if anything it is the less experienced players who should be taught properly.

Our sport needs to get better at this type of thing. We already have too many people who don't want to call rules violations on other people because they "don't want to be that guy", or "it's just a c-tier", or "it was just rec division", or whatever. Let's bring some uniform integrity to tournament play...

 

[DavidSauls]

As a matter of integrity, I prefer expecting people to do the right thing over instigating a system to prevent their cheating.

In the tournaments I've played and run, and all the scuttlebutt I hear around here, I haven't encountered anyone cheating with the scorecard, and highly doubt anyone I've played with has. If you share scorekeeping duties and announce scores for each hole, there's not that much opportunity, anyway.

I see this as extra effort, and 4 times as many scorecards, for negligible benefit.

 

[who-dat]

Our sport needs to get better at this type of thing. We already have too many people who don't want to call rules violations on other people because they "don't want to be that guy", or "it's just a c-tier", or "it was just rec division", or whatever. Let's bring some uniform integrity to tournament play...

This.

 

[Greatzky]

Make him a teeshirt that says I AM A CHEATER I SUCK AT LIFE and if he wants to continue in the league he has to wear that shirt!!

I can print that up for whoever needs it!!

 

[araytx]

I would call you for a courtesy violation if you tried that. That is annoying head games, if you need to count my score do it in your head and double check my math at the end of the hole.

While I do get that, I ONLY do it if it's already abundantly clear the player is cheating. It would be interesting for a cheater to be calling courtesy violations on others ... Eventually, he'd be forced to either get someone else to second the cheater or get a marshal on the card, to which I'm Ok with that anyway.

Don't worry @prerube, this will never happen if I'm on the course with you, because you don't cheat.

 

[ejvogie]

As a matter of integrity, I prefer expecting people to do the right thing over instigating a system to prevent their cheating.

Wish in one hand, sh1t in the other.

That said, I've never caught anyone pencil whipping, but I'd be sure to bring it to the TD's attention. I have no problem being "that guy".

 

[Mattallica]

I heard whispers tonight of an NC "super am" that may have engaged in such behavior at a recent tournament. Name and tournament withheld as I do not think the claim has been substantiated.

 

[Sadjo]

I had this type situation come up in an event I TDed last year. It was on the novice card. Two players came up to me after awards when i was packing up to say they believe a player that tied for 1st but lost playoff had cheated. The following day i got a phone call from yet another player saying the same thing.

After asking some questions, I learned the player who had been accused of cheating kept score the entire round and wasnt calling out his own scores. So that is a mistake by the other players...I had to tell them that once the event is over I can't really do anything about it other than to try and do better in the future.

I think the next time I have a novice division i will do a quick score keeping lesson/suggestion just for the new players. I might also mention that there was a claim of cheating in a recent event i ran and its best to keep everyone honest.

 

[chris deitzel]

Once again, the method I posted works for various reasons. Not only does it eliminate cheating, it also eliminates scoring errors, as well as errors that may happen when one person of the group turns in the cards. It also makes every person say their score out loud.

It really is the only solution.

Juliana Korver was the first person I saw use this system as a TD followed by Sharon Jenkins. There was not 1 single scoring issue at those events.

 

[kw83028]

Definitely banned if he's been warned already