Post-production Hot Stamps are Illegal

[biscoe]

Does the PGA check balls and clubs prior to events? Or only in the case that someone questions something? (Honest question- I have no idea.)

 

[BillFleming]

I have played at one worlds and watched a lot of their worlds events. Never had my disc weighed, never had my wing profile checked for compliance, bought discs with nearly impossible to remove stickers with pdga printed on the barcode, saw many of those stickers on the discs in play during that worlds.

I have never seen a scale or a go no go gauge for all the wing profiles they have approved used at any event I have played in or watched.

Guess how much my CT challenger weighed that I putted with at world's with was? I practiced with a couple pros for that worlds event who's putters felt even heavier than mine and I know from my triple beam before I flew to Kalamazoo I was 182 grams on my CT challenger.

They ignore rules because it's convenient. They need to just cut the nonsense rules out and stop trying to offload them onto players to judge. Look I love my disc golf buddies but I have been around for a long time and the average disc golfer is too dumb to change a spare tire without hurting themselves, now there's 220k more pdga members and my point is even more true, the rules need simplified and I'll give the pdga credit they are actually trying.

Still a long way to go and a lot of rules to wipe out of the book. They called them growing pains more than a decade ago and all I see is the funding base has grown drastically and the rules are still difficult
To nearly unenforceable and still convoluted.

As an ex-ball golfer, I like the PDGA rule book. It's not perfect, but it is mostly understandable and easy to use. If we aren't careful, the rule book could end up being like the USGA rule book and that thing is huge.

A big issue is that players are NOT required to know the rules - not really (yeah, the rules say you are supposed to know the rules....but, if it isn't enforced, players won't take time to learn them). I know more players who don't know the rules than those that do. I've talked to players on my cards and found a huge number have never even seen the rule book, much less read it. I like that players are required to be Certified Officials in higher tier tournaments, but it would be nice if it was a requirement for all tournaments. It might not make a player an expert on the rules (I know it sure didn't make me an expert), but it would make players more familiar with the rules and what can/can't be done.

One thing I would propose is that when you join the PDGA, you can't play in a sanctioned tournament until you pass the rules test. You don't have to pay the $10 and become a certified official, but you must pass it the one time to play in sanctioned tournaments....that way you have shown a familiarity, if not a full understanding, of the rules.

 

[BillFleming]

Does the PGA check balls and clubs prior to events? Or only in the case that someone questions something? (Honest question- I have no idea.)

No, but it is more obvious than disc golf. I have seen a PGA tournament where one player noticed another had 15 clubs. They called them on it and the club got removed. A big difference between PGA and PDGA tournaments is that PGA officials are at every tournament (or at least every major...but I do believe it is every PGA tournament) and can make rulings immediately. The disc golf TD isn't the same thing.

 

[BillFleming]

As an ex-ball golfer, I like the PDGA rule book. It's not perfect, but it is mostly understandable and easy to use. If we aren't careful, the rule book could end up being like the USGA rule book and that thing is huge.

A big issue is that players are NOT required to know the rules - not really (yeah, the rules say you are supposed to know the rules....but, if it isn't enforced, players won't take time to learn them). I know more players who don't know the rules than those that do. I've talked to players on my cards and found a huge number have never even seen the rule book, much less read it. I like that players are required to be Certified Officials in higher tier tournaments, but it would be nice if it was a requirement for all tournaments. It might not make a player an expert on the rules (I know it sure didn't make me an expert), but it would make players more familiar with the rules and what can/can't be done.

One thing I would propose is that when you join the PDGA, you can't play in a sanctioned tournament until you pass the rules test. You don't have to pay the $10 and become a certified official, but you must pass it the one time to play in sanctioned tournaments....that way you have shown a familiarity, if not a full understanding, of the rules.

Before someone says that the Competition Manual and Rules state that you have to know the rules......I agree, but if you don't read those, you don't know you are required to know the rules. Most players THINK they know the rules because they have played casual rounds and believe the rules used in casual rounds are the same for sanctioned tournaments (yes, I have had players tell me that).

Now that disc golf is becoming a bigger sport and more widely known/seen, I really think there needs to be a check that players have an understanding of the rules. It doesn't have to be a perfect understanding and players don't need to be Certified Officials, but there needs to be some check that a player has reviewed the rules before they can play in a sanctioned tournament (would be nice for sanctioned leagues also).

The quick and easy solution would be as I suggested, members have to pass the rules test, but they don't need to pay the money to become 'certified'.

 

[Countchunkula]

Before someone says that the Competition Manual and Rules state that you have to know the rules......I agree, but if you don't read those, you don't know you are required to know the rules. Most players THINK they know the rules because they have played casual rounds and believe the rules used in casual rounds are the same for sanctioned tournaments (yes, I have had players tell me that).

Now that disc golf is becoming a bigger sport and more widely known/seen, I really think there needs to be a check that players have an understanding of the rules. It doesn't have to be a perfect understanding and players don't need to be Certified Officials, but there needs to be some check that a player has reviewed the rules before they can play in a sanctioned tournament (would be nice for sanctioned leagues also).

The quick and easy solution would be as I suggested, members have to pass the rules test, but they don't need to pay the money to become 'certified'.

Or restrict them to the lowest divisions (ex MA4) offered until they pass the rules exam. If they already have a rating above that, tough luck, gotta pass the test to play.

"Don't want to play with the noobs? Then prove you know the rules."

 

[BillFleming]

Or restrict them to the lowest divisions (ex MA4) offered until they pass the rules exam. If they already have a rating above that, tough luck, gotta pass the test to play.

"Don't want to play with the noobs? Then prove you know the rules."

Since trophies would still be offered for the lowest division, you'd have players playing that division just to get a win. "Yeah, I'm 980 rated, but I haven't passed the rules test....so I'm playing MA4, going to win it easily...but them's the rules."

Join, pass the rules test - heck...it is "open book" to become a Certified Official...take the same test, but you don't have to pay the $10 to become certified. It shouldn't be difficult for everyone to pass the test to be able to play in sanctioned tournaments.

 

[Steve West]

...

They ignore rules because it's convenient.

...

You know YOU are "They", right?

Rules are enforced by the players.

 

[roblee]

rrrr

Mike Krupicka is very generous of his time as Chair of the Rules Committee .............He should be commended therein. "

[Absolutely! He has answered my couple emails promptly. ]

"....so please let's not call it or think it's "...just Mike's interpretation of Rule 813.01 C.4...."

[I think interpretation is accurate (interpret=explain the meaning of information, words, or actions). I didn't say "only" and in no way was condescending. Mike wasn't making a ruling or giving an opinion. It was just the facts ma'am. As I said in that post I think Mike's response on reddit is accurate & the only interpretation he could give. I also think it's ripe for a RC analysis.]

...........
..........

 

[dmoore1998]

You know YOU are "They", right?

Rules are enforced by the players.

Players are supposed to enforce the rules, but from a practical perspective how am I, as a player, expected to enforce a rule such as maximum disc weight for my cardmates? Bring a scale and look up the max weight for each of their molds as we play?

 

[Nale72]

I've read that some have drawn the conclusion from the statement in the original post that it would also mean that it also is illegal to use a disc with a wiped stamp. The reason being (I guess) that if the hot stamp add detectable thickness that is considered enough change to the thickness of the disc to make it illegal, then removing the stamp would also result in a similar change in thickness.

And if that is the case, would that be the same for the stickers that the manufacturer puts on the disc when it leaves them? That is, would removing stickers put there by the manufacturer make the disc illegal since it changes the thickness of the disc?

But I'll take the advice from several above and send these questions to the PDGA and see what their answer is.

If I only read the rules, my inerpretation is that it would not be illegal since rule 813.01 C 4 says:

C Other modifications to a disc after production make the disc illegal, including but not limited to:

4. Adding a material of a detectable thickness such as paint.

So the rule only say adding material such as paint, not removing paint.

 

[Steve West]

Players are supposed to enforce the rules, but from a practical perspective how am I, as a player, expected to enforce a rule such as maximum disc weight for my cardmates? Bring a scale and look up the max weight for each of their molds as we play?

The post I was responding to included this:

"I practiced with a couple pros for that worlds event who's putters felt even heavier than mine and I know from my triple beam before I flew to Kalamazoo I was 182 grams on my CT challenger. "

No, you don't bring the scale. What you do is say you'll question the disc under this rule:

"813.01 Illegal Disc
F. A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director."

A lot of different things can happen after that, but your part is done.

 

[biscoe]

The post I was responding to included this:

"I practiced with a couple pros for that worlds event who's putters felt even heavier than mine and I know from my triple beam before I flew to Kalamazoo I was 182 grams on my CT challenger. "

No, you don't bring the scale. What you do is say you'll question the disc under this rule:

"813.01 Illegal Disc
F. A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director."

A lot of different things can happen after that, but your part is done.

For that to be of any use there would need to be a mandate that TD's have a scale for checking the weights when questioned. IMO in this case players/TDs are being asked to police what is a manufacturer problem. There are a bazillion overweight discs out there because manufacturers would rather just mark them as within spec than grind them up or whatever. Does the PDGA have sufficient leverage to curb that practice? Highly debatable.

 

[Countchunkula]

The post I was responding to included this:

"I practiced with a couple pros for that worlds event who's putters felt even heavier than mine and I know from my triple beam before I flew to Kalamazoo I was 182 grams on my CT challenger. "

No, you don't bring the scale. What you do is say you'll question the disc under this rule:

"813.01 Illegal Disc
F. A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director."

A lot of different things can happen after that, but your part is done.

Couldn't a bad actor question every disc in a competitor's bag for being overweight? All discs would then be illegal for play until approved. Without a scale on site, it would be up to the TD to make a judgement call.

I hope no one would actually do that, but it seems possible.

 

[krupicka]

Couldn't a bad actor question every disc in a competitor's bag for being overweight? All discs would then be illegal for play until approved. Without a scale on site, it would be up to the TD to make a judgement call.

I hope no one would actually do that, but it seems possible.

Discs would not be illegal until approved. They would be illegal only if called and not subsequently approved by the TD. If you are confident that the disc will be declared legal by the TD, you can just keep throwing it. The TD can declare it legal, no penalties. If there's a chance that it is not, then every time you throw it, those penalties could potentially rack up.

 

[biscoe]

As a TD who doesn't carry a scale around I would approve any and all discs questioned on weight.

 

[BillFleming]

Couldn't a bad actor question every disc in a competitor's bag for being overweight? All discs would then be illegal for play until approved. Without a scale on site, it would be up to the TD to make a judgement call.

I hope no one would actually do that, but it seems possible.

If another player called all my discs (or any number of them) illegal due to weight, I would respond... "fair enough, that is your right. However, I'm going to keep playing with them and we can keep two scores for me. One as though the discs are legal and one as though they are illegal. After the round we will discuss it with the TD, if the TD determines they are illegal I will take the penalties - even if it means a DQ. But if they are determined to be legal, the score played that way will count."

Since a 'call' can be appealed to the TD, I would continue to play with the discs until we had a chance to discuss it with the TD. If possible, instead of waiting until the end, I would call the TD and have them meet us at the next hole to get a ruling.

Yes, I know continuing to throw an illegal disc is two penalty strokes and possible disqualification.....but the rules also say it is illegal unless the TD subsequently approves it. That is why I would continue to play with the disc(s) until we checked with the TD. If the TD says the discs are legal, then I don't incur penalties.

 

[dmoore1998]

The post I was responding to included this:

"I practiced with a couple pros for that worlds event who's putters felt even heavier than mine and I know from my triple beam before I flew to Kalamazoo I was 182 grams on my CT challenger. "

No, you don't bring the scale. What you do is say you'll question the disc under this rule:

"813.01 Illegal Disc
F. A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director."

A lot of different things can happen after that, but your part is done.

Practically speaking, what would ever make you say you question a disc's weight under that rule without having weighed it or likely without having even touched it though?

There is a rule about disc weight. Players are responsible for enforcing the rules.

You might be able to do it by feel of a random putter...how does a random player know if the driver another player just threw is 1gram over max weight? The practical answer is they have no idea...so how can they enforce that?

I say that because I think that leads to a lot of the selective enforcement of rules by players. There are rules that exist, that are nearly unenforceable...so player attitude towards rule enforcement has essentially turned to "I just enforce whatever rules I feel like"...because there's no practical way for players to actually enforce all the rules.

 

[BillFleming]

Practically speaking, what would ever make you say you question a disc's weight under that rule without having weighed it or likely without having even touched it though?

There is a rule about disc weight. Players are responsible for enforcing the rules.

You might be able to do it by feel of a random putter...how does a random player know if the driver another player just threw is 1gram over max weight? The practical answer is they have no idea...so how can they enforce that?

I say that because I think that leads to a lot of the selective enforcement of rules by players. There are rules that exist, that are nearly unenforceable...so player attitude towards rule enforcement has essentially turned to "I just enforce whatever rules I feel like"...because there's no practical way for players to actually enforce all the rules.

True, for an honest player it would be difficult if not impossible to call a disc overweight. However, not all players are honest (unfortunately) and some look for any advantage they can get....so I could see a player claiming another players disc as being overweight. Here's a scenario that I could see happening.....Player A is throwing their distance driver 350ish feet and out-throwing the rest of the card by 50 feet. Player B is annoyed that they aren't getting that kind of distance and Player A is beating them score-wise. Player B gets an idea....they ask to see Player A's driver stating they want to confirm it is a legal disc (which they have a right to do so). Once they hold it, Player B declares the disc to be too heavy and therefore illegal. Now it is upon Player A and the other cardmates to know the rule and that Player A can continue to use the disc (with possible penalties) until the legality is decided by the TD. Unfortunately, most players would believe the disc cannot be used at all until a decision by the TD is made.

 

[roblee]

"Player B gets an idea....they ask to see Player A's driver stating they want to confirm it is a legal disc (which they have a right to do so)."

It's always fun reading your scenarios Bill. Politely disagreeing. I don't think there is an implied or codified right to do this.

 

[Hampstead]

As a TD who doesn't carry a scale around I would approve any and all discs questioned on weight.

Wouldn't you need to have a PDGA approved calibrated scale?