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[Question] Potential tech standards changes?

Nobody's bannin' nuttin

:doh:
So much speculation and hate for nothing. Mr. Duvall's comments explained by folks that KNOW were only about lowering max weight on the wide rimmed stuff from 175 to 169ish. The actual standard in question is a weight to diameter? ratio. I believe going from 8.3 to 8.0 or something like that. He never suggested the banning of anything, but knuckleheads are so eager to find fault, blame and incite bad feelings in our community.

When Mr. Dunipace was hesitant to release the Destroyer he knew it would be a deterrent to most folks trying to improve their game. Take all your discs to a open field and see the real distance gain from the different classes. I'm afraid to be this honest here but there is only about 20' difference between my Roc3 when I hit it right and my Saints or Teebirds on average throws.

If you don't want to read the whole thread just search for Three Putt's and Discette's replies.

Truth (or at least accurate information) will set you free.
 
:doh:
So much speculation and hate for nothing. Mr. Duvall's comments explained by folks that KNOW were only about lowering max weight on the wide rimmed stuff from 175 to 169ish. The actual standard in question is a weight to diameter? ratio. I believe going from 8.3 to 8.0 or something like that. He never suggested the banning of anything, but knuckleheads are so eager to find fault, blame and incite bad feelings in our community.

I did not glean anything like this from this thread. I don't see what 6 grams is going to do, though. I am not aware of any specific standard he wants to change, or any specific reason he wants change. Just that high speed, high weight, sharp edged drivers are ruining our game.

Is this really a safety issue? Cause a Leopard is potentially more dangerous than a boss. Their rims are similarly sharp, they both have similar max weights, and the release speeds of leopards are higher than bosses (last info I saw). Even if the boss carries its speed for longer, the potential for damage is higher with the leopard.
 
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Geez, I wish I had enough time to write all that's in my head, but I don't. but to hit the high points:

1. Sustainability is about being able to survive and thrive without depleting or destroying the resources you have available. Disc golf sustainability, therefore, is about making sure there are places to play now and in the future, allowing for the expected /desired growth of the sport.
a. Safety is part of this - if people who are bystanders in public parks are being injured, that's bad for sustainability, because courses will be pulled from public parks.
b. Space needed for courses is part of this - when discs fly farther, you need more space for courses. Needing more space means more cost, less availability of land for courses. High costs will slow development of new courses.

2. Disc golf in it's current form is dangerous to unknowing/unaware bystanders. People walking through the park, not knowing there is a disc golf course present have no idea they could be hit by a sharp, heavy projectile thrown hundreds of feet away. This problem has only be exacerbated by advances in disc speed/distance. When I designed my first course in 1985, you only needed to worry about park users, say, 50 feet off the fairway being hit (by blunter discs, too). Now that discs (often thrown by unskilled players) can go even farther off course, you really need 100ft or more of safe space surrounding fairways.

3. Other sports have limited the "wow" factor of their product in the name of safety: baseball bats have been deadened to protect pitchers, racing cars have been made slower to protect drivers and spectators, golf balls have restrictions (mostly to keep courses from getting too long) that make them safer, football requires helmets, makes safer helmets, restricts types of hits. All of these sports remain popular spectator sports.

4. Wide-rimmed, fast, sharp-edged drivers do more damage to trees than midranges or putters. Look at trees close to the tee of a long hole, compared to trees next to the tee of a short hole. Which trees have received more damage? Yes, the trees near the driver-disc hole, not the midgrange/putter hole.

5. Public park courses are part of the sport and part of the history of the sport. Requiring private land and pay-to-play for *all* courses will eliminate most of our available placers to play and make it difficult to get new ones.

6. You don't need heavy, wide-rimmed drivers to have interesting, entertaining, compelling disc golf competition. There were lots of oohs and aahhs when Sammy Ferrans threw his Aero 400+ feet to park hole #4 at Ellison park in Rochester during the finals of the 1984 PDGA Worlds. If all competitors have to "disc down", the competition will still be great.

7. While restricting driver speed/width/sharpness would hurt sales of already-produced discs, those sales would be replaced by increased sales of slower discs, both from existing players and the new players who would come along in the future. Titleist has to make all of their golf balls the same size - they do just fine.

8. A standards change would never happen immediately, but would undoubtedly be phased in over time. X number of years before *any* discs are illegal, with more "old" discs made illegal each year, starting from the fastest/sharpest and adding more each year. It may take several years to do this, but it would get the desired result and give players time to wean themselves off of these discs.

9. Harold Duvall, who made the presentation to the PDGA board, is a multi-time World Champion and has been playing disc golf and other disc sports for well over 30 years. He knows a few things about flying discs. He LOVES the sport of disc golf, which has provided himself, his friends and family with income for 30 years. He is a man of high integrity, and has done a tremendous amount to further the sport of disc golf (creating EDGE, USDGC, donating many courses and countless discs and baskets). I find it hard to believe he would make this proposal without careful consideration of its impact on the sport.

10. Just because Harold is a part-owner of Innova doesn't mean this is an evil Innova scheme to kill the competition. There are people in this world who do things for reasons other than personal financial gain. Harold is one of them.

I'll stop at ten, but I could easily give you many more points, but work beckons.

This=truth. Stop making sense dammit! Rabble rabble!
 
:doh:
So much speculation and hate for nothing. Mr. Duvall's comments explained by folks that KNOW were only about lowering max weight on the wide rimmed stuff from 175 to 169ish. The actual standard in question is a weight to diameter? ratio. I believe going from 8.3 to 8.0 or something like that. He never suggested the banning of anything, but knuckleheads are so eager to find fault, blame and incite bad feelings in our community.

When Mr. Dunipace was hesitant to release the Destroyer he knew it would be a deterrent to most folks trying to improve their game. Take all your discs to a open field and see the real distance gain from the different classes. I'm afraid to be this honest here but there is only about 20' difference between my Roc3 when I hit it right and my Saints or Teebirds on average throws.

If you don't want to read the whole thread just search for Three Putt's and Discette's replies.

Truth (or at least accurate information) will set you free.

Teebird I can flick 275, destroyer I can flick over 400 feet. Big difference . Now backhand I can under stand your point a little more though.
 
Fairway Pusher

After reading this thread, I feel the need to chime in.
Recently our "big arm" course was pulled about a month before we were going to replant the course. Our design took the safety to top priority by improving how the course played around the multi-use facility.
it was already on thin ice due to excessive drinking/dug use, one golfer sprayed a drive across 2 fairways causing a near miss on a young girl and her mother. The lack of apology and respect from the golfer caused the mother insist the course be pulled due to safety concerns and the park department agreed.
this was a "big arm" course, high speed drivers rarely gave the thrower an advantage because of an extra 25-50' of distance. Generally, high speed driver throwers were at a disadvantage due to wind and the "spray" associated with that type of driver.
From a safety standpoint, I have to agree that high speed drivers can be dangerous in the hands of an inexperienced player. I also believe if a person is experienced enough to master high speed, that individual as a golfer should also understand that not many courses need the speed when you can get the distance from the glide.
Molds in my bag: Firebirds, Teebirds, Rocs, Challengers, PDs (might come out because I'm not convinced they are much more than a beat up firebird)
 
I love how people are acting like anything that isn't a high speed, wide rimmed driver will automatically be more safe. Whether you put a Firebird meathook into an inexperienced player's hands versus a Speed 13 driver, both are going to be just as dangerous and difficult to control, and require a higher level of skill to throw effectively.

Even if drivers with a rim width of 2.1 cm were banned, there will still be inexperienced players looking to throw the widest-rimmed disc just because it looks the fastest. And if the cut off were to be where the Wraith is in terms of rim width, then I still don't see a Wraith being that much safer than a Destroyer.
 
I wish this topic applied to me. I've removed all high speed wide rim from my bag because I can't throw it. And my game has improved. A local course here has a hole over a kilometer long... Think about that. A kilometer. Who wants to walk that? I'm not Canadian. But when I pick up Destroyers I throw them at my buddies who flick and they do well with them. If I told them they couldn't throw them anymore they would say sour grapes and they would be right. Also I am looking forward to the Salient Prometheousness. And I would kill for a Flywood disc in my bag. So I don't care about your rules. I play for fun. Don't outlaw graphite shafts on irons.....
 
I just don't see how a topic that effects everybody in disc golf can't be put to vote. I mean atleast let the PDGA members vote on it. I personally throw destroyers and seeing how the destroyer is the wraiths bigger brother it really shouldn't be that much of change for me theoretically of course. But I do have buddies that flick boss's and katana's and I know discing down to a wraith would probably screw them for awhile. I really don't think banning 2.1 cm or knocking the weight of a disc down 6 grams is going to make them any "safer" unless "safer" is just another term for more controllable. If innova was so hell bent on being against them then they should have stuck to their guns and stopped at the wraith and just made more variations on what they had up until that point. Personally I see drinking and drug use being more of a reason to pull a course from a public park then high speed drivers. I know I am very cautious about who it when I take my kids to the course, cause I don't want them exposed to that. I think it would be a better use of the PDGA's energy and resources to figure out a way to police up the riff raff that truly damage out sport. Although I know that currently there is no way for the PDGA to really police up those individuals. This is why if it were me callin the shots I'd be pushing for no more public park courses and from here on out on private courses. The first place to try would be ball golf courses. They are businesses so Im sure that if you presented the idea to them as a business plan they would probably be receptive to the idea. On top of that they could help enforce rules and even put out a dress code which I sure would only be a polo and kakhi shorts or pants. These things could all help legitimize the sport which I think is the point of all these technical standards talk any way right. If this sport really wants to be recognized it has to start selling its self as more than just a hippie past time and as a possible money maker. The reason that other sports get the big bucks is cause they draw in the big bucks. How bad ass would it be to see a disc golf course along side the ball golf course at pebble beach?
 
All they said is that they would look into it. If there were to be a vote, it would be at least a year away, if not more, while they gathered some data and opinions....I would think so, anyway.
 
I'm not even going to pretend I read all 34 pages but here's my 2 cents. With what high speed drivers do for beginners (whether targeted at that group or not) they will never go away, even if outlawed by the PDGA, the demand would still be there & they would still be produced. How about the World Flying Disc Association or whoever does the distance competitions? Would they just quit? If someone gets killed by a disc they wont stop making them either. Golf Balls have killed people & the PGA probably doesn't even blink an eye.

The PDGA needs disc golf to exist & disc golfers, disc golf doesn't need the PDGA. If a review led to a ban of high speed drivers I firmly believe that would be the catalyst that ignites the PDGA's demise. There are already plenty of non-sanctioned tournaments that at least in my area draw just as well as the sanctioned ones.
 
And MVP Shrugs

I feel like the guys at MVP are probably a little relieved. I get the sense they probably didn't want to make those high-speed drivers everyone's been badgering them for anyway.
 
lol^ and kudos to you for the suikoden II reference.

i truthfully don't see all that much wrong with the high speed drivers. throw them if you want. most people probably don't throw well with them anyway.

as far as hitting people . . .

don't hit people.

we need courses specifically for the sport.
 
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New players buy high speed drivers so they can throw farther. :clap:

They find out they cannot throw farther. :wall:

They quit the sport. :thmbdown:

Innova looses repeat business. :(

Innova doesn't like to loose business.... They are in it for the greenbacks. So they blame it on safety and just ban what players worked years to master. :doh:

Better idea! Spend money teaching new players, marketing the correct discs to new players and get more money when they disc up!
 
It seems this "sustainability" isn't in keeping the sport alive.. generating new players.. funding events, etc, but more of two concerns:

Safety of bystanders and
Distance making some holes "irrelevant"

Is that correct?

Both of these are so easily mitigated with proper course design. But to address each:

Safety

It is hysteria of very few incidents that ended up banning lawn darts in the US.
Why is this even an issue?

Thrown Discs are not safe. Thrown Frisbees are not safe. Even the softer frisbee, not the ultimate discs, will break noses, teeth, fingernails, headlights/taillights..
I don't care if you throw an aviar, if you hit a newborn being picked up out of a stroller in the head.. it is dead.

No matter what "limiting" rule they want to produce, any disc can injure and kill.

To drive it home. Throwing a disc in a direction of a person is not safe.

So how do you not throw at a person? Well you, the dgcoursereview reader, obviously takes the sport serious, and already checks for danger.
College kid who thinks frolf is all about the beer and pot will not check for danger.

So perhaps some courses that were put in parks need to be redesigned. Sure that will take money to redo a park, but is it not better than having a safety concern remove it totally? One course, Willow Creek? in WI was removed because of a disc striking a walker. (lol not a walker from walking dead)

Redesigning leads into the next "problem" brought up in this thread..
Difficulty on a course.

Sure if a course was designed around a 250-300 throw and people are making 400-450 throws, there will be less throws. But does less throws make it less difficult to gain a stroke on someone?

If a "par 3" 380 used to take 2 good shots to park it, and then lay it in for a 3.. now takes 1 good shot to park it and a lay in.. what is the real difference?

The margin of error is GREATER with less shots being taken.

Let me repeat that. The less shots per hole, the more important the first drive is. If you can nearly park a par 3 on your drive, the pressure is on the next person on card to do likewise. Look at the McBeth/Shusterick tiebreaker over the missed scoring.

650' hole "A hole designed with the new drivers in mind"
The 2nd shot is the most important shot. Your drive as long as it hasn't put you in a haphazard position where you have no shot, can be 50-100 further from the target than another's and you just park your approach. They are still too far away to putt it in, and you both take a 3.
Drive isn't as important as the 2nd shot is.

380' hole "a has been hole that was designed way back"
Drive can park for easy 2, or miss and make a more difficult putt.
This is where high pressure comes in.. both on the tee, and on the person farther out on the putt.


So both of these issues really aren't issues imo at all.
You aren't going to make discs safe.. and there really isn't a distance problem.
If a course designer wants to re-evaluate distances and create more obstacles or mark some ob to make it challenging, then do so.

Play at courses that are designed well to limit the use of these "dangerous drivers" should not be altered.
Play at courses that are designed away from bystanders should not be altered.

And a big sweeping rule change will alter everyone's game over a few instances of danger.
Lawn darts redux.
 
I have been letting this digest all day. There have been rumors flying for months about how bad one new disc company hurt an old one by stabbing them directly in the heart and watching them bleed out. Said company would benefit greatly watching their new adversary that has MOSTLY big rim drivers go down and lose the type of money new start up companies can't afford to lose in redesign and marketing. Maybe dramatic but it's a pretty emotional situation in my opinion. I vote no change!

And also keep lobbying from manufacturers out of the professional organization or it will burn to the ground.... RIGHTFULLY!
 

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