Practice how you play

[Alexplz]

Hey guys, ended up down a YouTube rabbithole earlier today and stumbled upon this video regarding free throw %s:



(Should start at 7min 5sec)

The entire video warrants a quick watch, but specifically the part I linked where the cognitive psych talks about practice consistent with performance I think is relevant to us.

These Marksman style baskets with the narrow chain assembly, and to a degree the practice routines where you putt a big stack at the basket for an hour... I think you're practicing putting practice. That is to say, some value in your practice is being lost by not preparing for what actually matters; sinking putts out on the course in comp play.

If I can speak to the practice on the narrow baskets specifically - I hypothesize that the benefit to be gained from dialing in your putt to a more narrow, catchy portion of full size baskets is 100% fake, and that practice on the same model basket you actually play on would result in lower scores. opcorn:

On the other hand, there is value in working on actual mechanics and form, and rote practice is sort of The Way to get that stuff down, I just think there's a balance to be had with making your practice as close to your play as possible.

I'm the worst, honestly. Do I wear flipflops on the course or putt 5x from one lie in a row? nope. But that's how I typically practice, out of laziness really.

Thoughts?

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah at a certain point with putting you already have the muscle memory/form, so you just have to work on hitting every single putt. Of course you can get smoother, get more power, etc. But that still develops naturally over many more putts. Just at the beginning tons of repetitions does help people get to a repeatable and usable motion.

Once you have a solid enough putt, then firing 5 to the basket in a row without thinking doesn't do anything for you on the course. At least for me that's what I've found.

It's also useful for me to grab a putter, step to the lie, putt and hit it. Step away from the lie, grab the second putter, set up, hit it, etc. If you hit the first putt and keep your feet in the same place, you'll be very confident you can hit the 2nd and 3rd putts. If you have to reset every time, you have to practice what it's like to hit the putt the first time again and test your body alignment.

 

[ru4por]

I think, outside of muscle memory, routine has to be given some consideration. I try to make my casual/league play the same as my tournament play. I use a mini, employ my putting and driving routines to every casual shot. I try not to take lines or attempt shots in casual/league play that I would not attempt in tournament play. I try to follow PDGA rules, even in casual play. I am of the mind set that these rounds are all practice for my tournament play.

 

[Jay Dub]

I always like to advise others to play like you practice which is much more relaxing. I'm not totally disagreeing with the OP but I think for your mental game the opposite is better.

 

[F. Howl]

....


If I can speak to the practice on the narrow baskets specifically - I hypothesize that the benefit to be gained from dialing in your putt to a more narrow, catchy portion of full size baskets is 100% fake, and that practice on the same model basket you actually play on would result in lower scores. opcorn:

....

I hate on bullseye style baskets every chance I get. My weekly seems to like them and it's now our practice basket in the parking lot before the round. All they seem to achieve is changing people's putts to softer or loftier dropping putt...that or your picking up scuffed up putters off the asphault rather than out of the cage.

On most cages, spit outs aren't an issue. A softer, loftier, dropping putt isn't saving me any strokes and hurts my long putt game.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think, outside of muscle memory, routine has to be given some consideration. I try to make my casual/league play the same as my tournament play. I use a mini, employ my putting and driving routines to every casual shot. I try not to take lines or attempt shots in casual/league play that I would not attempt in tournament play. I try to follow PDGA rules, even in casual play. I am of the mind set that these rounds are all practice for my tournament play.

Supposedly nobody wanted to play practice rounds with Jack Nicklaus because he played every shot at tournament pace and full routine.

I think it's great for driving practice as well on many levels and is what I've done. Setup and address every practice drive before you throw. Slow down and wait some time between drives and let your body rest and really think more about what you want to do or change or focus on before the upcoming drive.

 

[rhatton1]

The best improvements in my putting came from trying out loads of different styles and working out what worked in each and then trying to put these all together. Before that I could practice putt all day long and see no real benefit on the course. Now I know what my body should be doing to produce a good consistent putt and can practice putt far more efficiently. It also means I feel comfortable going from anything from a straddle to a turbo putt which all come in useful in tournament play.

It is more translatable to the course as all I need to do now is work out how to get my body in balance before the putt. I do that and it should go in. My misses are high and low now hardly ever left and right. I still have a mental barrier to overcome in the 20 - 35' range where i hit the bucket far far too often, but inside and outside that my putting percentages are way up, my circle 2 makes are well over 1000 rated even when not practising, to the point I sometimes consider trying to land further from the target as I'm more likely to make the longer one. Mine is a commitment issue in the 20 - 35' range, outside that I go for it inside that I go for it. in that range I suddenly find myself full of self doubt and putt low.

You know those putts you just know are going in before you take them? I'll bet it's because your body is properly balanced and ready to go and you just haven't realised all the times you aren't. I'm finding that feeling more and more in the long putts now when I feel my body is set right pre putt.

In terms of practising putting, never take lots of putts from the same stance, putt, move a step to your left, putt again step back to the middle, putt again step right, then forward etc. This means each time you have to get into balance again, you're not already there. It teaches your body the most important bit which is the set up.

I'd highly recommend that your practice putting tries out all styles of putts not just the one you are comfortable with and use on the course. This is practice to better understand how your body works rather than repeating actions.

 

[Meillo]

I always like to advise others to play like you practice which is much more relaxing.

Yay! Best-shot drives and five putts from the same lay in tournaments! Yay!

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

There's definitely reasoning on the idea of resetting every time.. It makes sense.. It works. You don't have a stack to putt in a tournament, just one.

I think it's also handy the "lazy" way. Bin full of discs keep the same stance and rocket those putts as part of a routine to build "good" repetition. It helps me figure out what the difference is between making it and not.. Oh I think I shifted my foot, maybe I tried too hard. OK so foot like this.. Draw back deeper, throw easier. Bam! I've been called a fast draw player before.. Most of the time it works for me not to think too much just trust my body knows what it's doing.. About a 10 second routine to putt.

I think the key is just to mix it up don't do the same thing all the time, change your basket elevation etc. Out of my 20 stack of Envy, there's 5-7 that are the same. When I practice those are the first discs I throw because they "count more" . The rest are just keeping the motion.. Switch from my 10 plasma to 3 proton, same weight but if it hits low I just tell myself the line and loft were good and the "right" putter would have nailed it.. I don't correct for the disc...

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Great video! I think one of the things that gets lost in the mix, is that making the clean up putt is a great way to mentally unburden yourself. So many rec/am players are putting to avoid a bad come-back and those putts are not made with confidence or conviction. My suggestion to new players, is to putt with the putter upside-down from 30 feet and the disc has to be in the air by the time it gets to the bottom of the basket and no higher than a foot above the basket. If you're not getting the disc there, then you're putting too lofty / slow.

If you are missing low at any substantial %, then I'd say you're not putting hard enough.

Also, I suck at putting - but tend to make my game-time clutch putts, because I can be a bit wild - but a hard flat putt tends to stick better on the AM side and I get better % sticks when I'm jamming them home.

 

[Jet57]

If I can speak to the practice on the narrow baskets specifically - I hypothesize that the benefit to be gained from dialing in your putt to a more narrow, catchy portion of full size baskets is 100% fake, and that practice on the same model basket you actually play on would result in lower scores. opcorn:

Very good video Alex, nice find!

Full disclosure, I've owned a marksman basket since last Saturday, so it's interesting for this topic to pop up right now. I've been playing HORSE with the wife, and some Around the World on my own in the evenings. I'll play my first round on Saturday; extremely small sample size in terms of training on the marksman, so we'll see if there is any noticeable improvement in my putting and/or confidence.

Doing a quick search, I was able to locate an interesting Journal of Sports Science paper that tested effects of a shoot training programme with a reduced hoop diameter. I have not read the whole paper as of yet, but it does appear that there is a least some evidence to support the theory that training on modified/smaller targets does improve accuracy.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23113531

Full paper can be found here: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ce_and_kinematics_in_young_basketball_players

 

[Alexplz]

Read full paper, cool that it was available for free. I would suppose that the greater improvement in free throws from the experimental group was because the narrower rim forced them to increase the angle and speed of their shot moreso than just becoming more accurate.

I would of course be curious to see how this would pan out with DG. I am also curious to see how the players' actual in-game free throw %s were impacted.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

I would of course be curious to see how this would pan out with DG. I am also curious to see how the players' actual in-game free throw %s were impacted.

I think in how it relates to the OP free throw video the idea of a marksman basket is to narrow your line/area of focus. It could be a bit like throwing through a hoop 1/2 way to the basket. In reality that hoop should make no difference the disc will naturally go through that on the way to the basket on a good putt but seeing the basket through that small gap can narrow your focus. Marksman style baskets kinda same idea. Aim small, miss small.

I always like to advise others to play like you practice which is much more relaxing. I'm not totally disagreeing with the OP but I think for your mental game the opposite is better.

Which was a point Nash made, right? Put yourself in the same mental state as practice. I find it funny that the Psychologist was talking about actions being more difficult on the big stage because of the size of the stage and attention and what not. The advice? Rather than try and mimic the stress of the tournament/big stage calm yourself in the moment to the your point of practice.

This is where I think a lot of people get mentally bent in practice and there are so many interpretations of practice like you play I find it both laughable and frustrating depending on my interaction with those people, like if they are teammates or I have to practice with them.

I've always thought about it more from a mental approach rather than physical. Practice with a competitive focus but the intensity at least in physical competition doesn't need to be there. Then when you are on stage in actual competition try and bring yourself back to the practice point. Make it easy but up the intensity.

 

[slowplastic]

I've never used the Marksman basket, but I have used a terribly janky practice basket that was tilted with chains hanging over the edge of the basket, and the basket missing welds. Good putts would kick out or drop out constantly. I stopped associating putts staying in on that basket or putts getting "unlucky" with good or bad putts. I'd just focus on if I hit the putt where I intended and then assess if it was good or bad. Of course I'm not driving 50MPH into the basket and thinking "that was fine" even if it chains through or something silly...but just saying that even if fast-ish putts may kick out of a single chain basket you can still use it as a fine aiming tool and disassociate the putt staying in or not from good/bad.

 

[Jet57]

I would suppose that the greater improvement in free throws from the experimental group was because the narrower rim forced them to increase the angle and speed of their shot moreso than just becoming more accurate.

Isn't that what accuracy is though? For example; if someone were to ask me what makes someone a good/accurate putter, I would probably start by saying someone who practices a lot. If they pressed the question further, such as, why does practice help...?

Because through practice/time one develops a repeatable motion (angle of release, speed, spin, balance...etc.) capable of giving them the highest probability of making their putt. Therefore I would propose that reducing the size of the basket down to the best part of the basket to sink a putt (center) would be beneficial. It would force you to develop a motion that allows you to hit the center of the basket more often.

This is of course making the assumption that the "best part of the basket to sink a putt" is in fact the center.

Great discussion Alex!

 

[Alexplz]

Isn't that what accuracy is though? For example; if someone were to ask me what makes someone a good/accurate putter, I would probably start by saying someone who practices a lot. If they pressed the question further, such as, why does practice help...?

Because through practice/time one develops a repeatable motion (angle of release, speed, spin, balance...etc.) capable of giving them the highest probability of making their putt. Therefore I would propose that reducing the size of the basket down to the best part of the basket to sink a putt (center) would be beneficial. It would force you to develop a motion that allows you to hit the center of the basket more often.

This is of course making the assumption that the "best part of the basket to sink a putt" is in fact the center.

Great discussion Alex!

In the article the researchers go to lengths to establish that the more narrow hoops are better attacked with a deep angle, requiring more release speed and a different (higher?) release point. It's possible that the narrow hoops taught the kids to shoot with better form, because in practice on the narrow hoops a better angle of attack was needed if they wanted to make any buckets at all.

What I'm saying is that it's possible their "accuracy" was not specifically improved, but that the more effective shooting form they learned improved their results, giving them a greater margin of error for off center shots to still go in.

It may come down to this - another user mentioned that the marksman baskets were encouraging shots being lobbed directly into the basket (or something like that.) Whether this change in approach learned from practice on these baskets would result in saved strokes on a big basket in a competitive setting (as opposed to practice on a regular big basket), I'm not sure.

I would be careful not to conclude that big hoop:little hoop :: normal basket:marksman…

 

[Alexplz]

FWIW, great article. And it does certainly support (or at least not deny) that they may be on to something with those skinny baskets.

There has been talk of putting being too easy. I'm a bad putter, so I don't feel that way personally, but I could see reducing the # of chains on tourney baskets or increasing the minimum diameter of the disc as a decent option.

 

[Jay Dub]

Yay! Best-shot drives and five putts from the same lay in tournaments! Yay!

Not very often but every once in a while I need to point out that common sense is required. :|

 

[pmorgan1214]

One thing I tell myself is that your body already knows what to do, we have all done it a thousand times. Its all mental after that, if you have a good form and have progressed, everything else is mental. How you play the hole, how you do your stance, and your focus at that time and point for that 30 seconds its your turn.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I always pre-reg for practice.