Pre-Warning a Player of a Violation

[ToddL]

I've had interactions both ways with people on the course.

I've called a stance violation on a guy who was standing in an OB area when he threw. He got a little upset and asked "why didn't you warn him before I threw?" All I could say "Ah crap, man, I'm sorry. I didn't think you were actually going to throw. I thought you were just swinging your arms around."

I've preemptively warned people and the reactions have gone both ways. "Holy crap, thanks, I totally forgot there's a mando there" as well as "Uhh, duh, how stupid do you think I am?"

 

[ejvogie]

This is something I've had "discussions" about in sanctioned play.

I saw a cardmate (Player 1) about to violate a rule and warned them about it. Another cardmate (Player 2) said I couldn't do that....I had to let them commit the violation. Their argument was that I affected Player 1's score (by saving them the penalty) and therefore, affected Player 2's standing in the round (Player 1 would have had a 'worse' score and possibly Player 2 would have ended up ahead of them).

I said it was just courtesy to notify a player that they were about to violate a rule. Player 2 said there was nothing in the rules about warning a player prior to the violation....only about enforcing the rule after the violation.

So, what do you do in that circumstance? Do you warn a card mate they are about to have a violation? Or is that against the rules?

For an example. A person marks their lie and takes their stance. You notice their supporting point is partially on their mini. Are you allowed to tell them prior to their throw?

Well, if there's nothing in the rules about it, how can it be illegal?

 

[peabody]

Well, if there's nothing in the rules about it, how can it be illegal?

Suppose I am annoyed by this rules guru and he is on my last nerve?
Or he is warning my close competitor on an upcoming shot?
A courtesy violation call would be in order.
In casual play I will always help someone out and keep them from attempting what will be an illegal throw/stance violation/ect. And would welcome input from my cardmates.
Not every person you encounter in a PDGA tournament are fair, kind,courteous and helpful.

 

[biscoe]

Suppose I am annoyed by this rules guru and he is on my last nerve?
Or he is warning my close competitor on an upcoming shot?
A courtesy violation call would be in order.
In casual play I will always help someone out and keep them from attempting what will be an illegal throw/stance violation/ect. And would welcome input from my cardmates.
Not every person you encounter in a PDGA tournament are fair, kind,courteous and helpful.

To the bolded- under which provision of the courtesy rules? Merely being annoying is not a violation of anything nor is warning your competitor to watch his feet.

 

[peabody]

To the bolded- under which provision of the courtesy rules? Merely being annoying is not a violation of anything nor is warning your competitor to watch his feet.

A-COU-1: A rival of mine likes to play head games, for example by telling me my score for the round, that they think I will make or miss a putt, etc. Can I call a courtesy violation on them?
Maybe. Though being a jerk isn't explicitly listed as a courtesy violation, any action that is "distracting or unsportsmanlike" can be penalized. You will need to decide if the player's behavior is bad enough to call. Short of that, it is something you, your group, and/or other players will have to work out with them. If the behavior is bad enough, or there's a pattern of it for that player, you can notify the TD and/or the PDGA Disciplinary Committee.

 

[ILUVSMGS18]

A-COU-1: A rival of mine likes to play head games, for example by telling me my score for the round, that they think I will make or miss a putt, etc. Can I call a courtesy violation on them?
Maybe. Though being a jerk isn't explicitly listed as a courtesy violation, any action that is "distracting or unsportsmanlike" can be penalized. You will need to decide if the player's behavior is bad enough to call. Short of that, it is something you, your group, and/or other players will have to work out with them. If the behavior is bad enough, or there's a pattern of it for that player, you can notify the TD and/or the PDGA Disciplinary Committee.

I'd say you could probably call it if you state before the round that it gets to you. I'd say that's unsportsmanlike at that point and thus deserves the courtesy violation.

 

[BillFleming]

I'd say you could probably call it if you state before the round that it gets to you. I'd say that's unsportsmanlike at that point and thus deserves the courtesy violation.

I've played with someone who does that at the start of the round....even says he'll call a violation if you tell him his score (total or +/-). I like the fact that he reminds people it would be a violation so they don't tell him the score jokingly.

 

[Dingus]

(Player 1 would have had a 'worse' score and possibly Player 2 would have ended up ahead of them).

Who the hell wants to win by penalty? What a loser.

I've played with someone who does that at the start of the round....even says he'll call a violation if you tell him his score (total or +/-). I like the fact that he reminds people it would be a violation so they don't tell him the score jokingly.

This is crazy. How is saying the score a courtesy violation? If that guy told me that I would give him a courtesy violation for the bunk courtesy violation warning.

 

[BillFleming]

Who the hell wants to win by penalty? What a loser.



This is crazy. How is saying the score a courtesy violation? If that guy told me that I would give him a courtesy violation for the bunk courtesy violation warning.

This was stated before, but:

QA-COU-1: A rival of mine likes to play head games, for example by telling me my score for the round, that they think I will make or miss a putt, etc. Can I call a courtesy violation on them?
Maybe. Though being a jerk isn't explicitly listed as a courtesy violation, any action that is "distracting or unsportsmanlike" can be penalized. You will need to decide if the player's behavior is bad enough to call. Short of that, it is something you, your group, and/or other players will have to work out with them. If the behavior is bad enough, or there's a pattern of it for that player, you can notify the TD and/or the PDGA Disciplinary Committee.

So it is a gray/grey area, but CAN be called as a violation. But, I would say that the player would need to notify everyone in advance...it all comes down to intention. Did the player intend to 'play a head game' by telling you your score? Or was it just something they did for all the players?

 

[Dcinmd]

This was stated before, but:



So it is a gray/grey area, but CAN be called as a violation. But, I would say that the player would need to notify everyone in advance...it all comes down to intention. Did the player intend to 'play a head game' by telling you your score? Or was it just something they did for all the players?

Anyone can make any call they so choose. A penalty stoke can not be enforced without a second from the group or tournament official.

Bill has on a green shirt, courtesy violation.

Now if someone ask me nicely to not announce the scores I don't. And my general rule of thumb is not to announce any scores during the round.

 

[zenbot]

Whenever I play a tournament at my home course, I let everybody know (unless they're all locals) pertinent information about a hole prior to anybody shooting. OBs, mandatories, poison oak or anything else of note. If it's not my home course, I'll ask the group for clarification, even if I'm aware.

This serves 2 purposes. People may truly not be aware and are generally grateful. Players who bend the rules don't have excuses.

I would rather not win by penalties and IMO golf should really be you against the course.

 

[Nova P]

Whenever I play a tournament at my home course, I let everybody know (unless they're all locals) pertinent information about a hole prior to anybody shooting. OBs, mandatories, poison oak or anything else of note. If it's not my home course, I'll ask the group for clarification, even if I'm aware.

This serves 2 purposes. People may truly not be aware and are generally grateful. Players who bend the rules don't have excuses.

I would rather not win by penalties and IMO golf should really be you against the course.

I have legit been on a card where one player was doing what you do, and another player asked them to stop it, in several different groups with different people involved.

I had no idea this practice was so contentious. Seems helpful to me. I dunno. Personally I look after myself with a caddy book, whether printed or on a phone. vov

 

[dndelli]

Suppose I am annoyed by this rules guru and he is on my last nerve?
Or he is warning my close competitor on an upcoming shot?
A courtesy violation call would be in order.
In casual play I will always help someone out and keep them from attempting what will be an illegal throw/stance violation/ect. And would welcome input from my card mates.
Not every person you encounter in a PDGA tournament are fair, kind,courteous and helpful.

I think this all comes down to context and approach. I think it is totally fair to warn someone before they throw, if they are receptive to it, to give them subtle and friendly advice. Most people seem fairly receptive as long as the situation is handled delicately.

Plus, from my experiences, it's easier to convince someone they should check their stance before they throw, instead of potentially ruining a card atmosphere over calling a (potentially un-seconded) foot fault or something.

Now, if I am on a card with someone who is actively cheering when another player hits a tree or misses a putt, I don't typically offer them the same courtesy. Luckily it's been a while since I have had to deal with that though.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I have legit been on a card where one player was doing what you do, and another player asked them to stop it, in several different groups with different people involved.

I had no idea this practice was so contentious. Seems helpful to me. I dunno. Personally I look after myself with a caddy book, whether printed or on a phone. vov

It seems like the kind of thing one would say to mess with people.

Hey, before you throw. Don't miss left. It's OB with a drop zone. And the drop zone is tooooough. Oh, and death hornets to the right. Good luck on your tee shot, I'm sure you'll pure it.

 

[ray1970]

Whenever I play a tournament at my home course, I let everybody know (unless they're all locals) pertinent information about a hole prior to anybody shooting. OBs, mandatories, poison oak or anything else of note. If it's not my home course, I'll ask the group for clarification, even if I'm aware.

I hope this isn't a serious comment.

I can't even imagine playing a round where some guy was trying to give a hole breakdown on every single hole or asking for a breakdown of each and every hole.

There is a course around here where a body was found in the woods near hole 8. There could be another course where a body is found by about hole 4.

 

[BillFleming]

Whenever I play a tournament at my home course, I let everybody know (unless they're all locals) pertinent information about a hole prior to anybody shooting. OBs, mandatories, poison oak or anything else of note. If it's not my home course, I'll ask the group for clarification, even if I'm aware.

This serves 2 purposes. People may truly not be aware and are generally grateful. Players who bend the rules don't have excuses.

I would rather not win by penalties and IMO golf should really be you against the course.

This is helpful, but can go both ways. It can be annoying to others and, as someone else said, knowing where "bad spots" are can cause a player to focus on them.

I have given and asked for information on a hole. For giving information, when my group gathers at our first hole and introduce each other, I will let them know I am familiar with the course and if they aren't - do they want me to give them advice on holes where it isn't obvious? For getting information, I will tell the group that I'm unfamiliar with the course and would appreciate any advice on the holes.

I played a round this one time where some holes had two baskets. On the first hole with two baskets, I had a great shot to the basket, and went to putt for birdie; my group asked...."what are you doing? The basket we are playing to is over there". That's when I learned to let my group know I'm not familiar with a course and would appreciate advice....and to ask on holes where the play isn't obvious.

 

[Dingus]

I hope this isn't a serious comment.

I can't even imagine playing a round where some guy was trying to give a hole breakdown on every single hole or asking for a breakdown of each and every hole.

There is a course around here where a body was found in the woods near hole 8. There could be another course where a body is found by about hole 4.

We need a downvote button. :thmbdown:

 

[ru4por]

Whenever I play a tournament at my home course, I let everybody know (unless they're all locals) pertinent information about a hole prior to anybody shooting. OBs, mandatories, poison oak or anything else of note. If it's not my home course, I'll ask the group for clarification, even if I'm aware.

This serves 2 purposes. People may truly not be aware and are generally grateful. Players who bend the rules don't have excuses.

I would rather not win by penalties and IMO golf should really be you against the course.

I have played some tournaments blind. On tough courses, guys like zenbot make the round and tournament experience, much better. This kind of information makes a positive impression of the local scene, the tournament as a whole and really adds to card comradery. Some, or all of this, may have no importance to every player. I have found much more of this positive approach, in the age protected divisions. Competing, and NOT wanting your cardmates to play well and have a good time, is a shortcoming. I am all about the competition jazz, but douchery IS NOT part of that. If it is, IMO, you are missing the point. It should always be about your victory, not the defeat of your opponent.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I would rather not win by penalties and IMO golf should really be you against the course.

The underlined really resonates with me. All he's suggesting is providing some useful info to try and level the playing field for cardmates unfamiliar with the course, so to speak.

I don't expect a caddy book for my local C-Tier, and while I expect the TD to go over the various OB and hazards during the players meeting, no one wants to hear or remember a whole dissertation.

So a friendly reminder of what trouble lies ahead on that hole, a few seconds before the 1st player tees off is the courteous thing to do.

If you can't handle being armed with that info, and it causes you to focus on the hazard, the problem's with you, not the player providing the info. They didn't throw your disc OB, nor did they cause you to, simply by making you aware it's location.

 

[autocrosscrx]

The underlined really resonates with me. All he's suggesting is providing some useful info to try and level the playing field for cardmates unfamiliar with the course, so to speak.

I don't expect a caddy book for my local C-Tier, and while I expect the TD to go over the various OB and hazards during the players meeting, no one wants to hear or remember a whole dissertation.

So a friendly reminder of what trouble lies ahead on that hole, a few seconds before the 1st player tees off is the courteous thing to do.

If you can't handle being armed with that info, and it causes you to focus on the hazard, the problem's with you, not the player providing the info. They didn't throw your disc OB, nor did they cause you to, simply by making you aware it's location.

That's different without a caddy book.

They tend to put out a google document caddy book for stuff like casual doubles here. Or at least an image of a written out layout or a detailed post on Facebook. So I kind of imaged getting to about hole 3 and being like, "Dude, I have the google doc right here."