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- Dec 19, 2009
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I think you can take 2 provisionals...one if my disc is lost from last lie. 2 if my disc is OB. from last in bounds.
You could. That might be pushing the "save time" aspect.
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I think you can take 2 provisionals...one if my disc is lost from last lie. 2 if my disc is OB. from last in bounds.
Hypothetically, players might be able to say, "I'll use my first provisional if my disc landed in the woods on the right side of the fairway. My second provisional would be used if my disc lands in the woods on the left side."
If the rules allowed such a thing---which they clearly don't---they would be tough to handle.
So you make a "conditional" throw: "If it goes in the woods on the right, I'll abandon it." So how well defined is the boundary of those woods? What about a disc that's a foot into them, or a foot outside of them, or how do you even tell if the edge of the woods is an uneven line of trees? Is the thrower going to outline in detail exactly what lie will be abandoned, and what not?
"Lost" is fact; either it was found before the 3 minutes expired, or it wasn't. "OB" is fact; either it's on the wrong side of the OB line, or it's not. The "I'm going to abandon it" zone has a very blurry line. And that's if it's woods---what if it's the wrong side of a hill? Or not far enough? Or in the area behind a large obstacle?
The Rules Committee has shown wisdom in not providing this option.
Hmm, let me rephrase...
How would someone gain an advantage on a provisional abandonment when it would save time and the group agrees to the stated conditions of the provisional abandonment?
That's not how it would work at all. You couldn't throw a conditional shot. You could only declare after the first shot the unlikely condition that you would accept that lie after you find it, like in the OP's case maybe it somehow got lucky and kicked over to the left side or back into a blind fairway or putting green, there's no way they wouldn't take that lie in that rare case. Otherwise the provisional lie must be taken or is the correct lie, regardless of how good or bad that provisional throw was and would be throwing 4 from the provisional lie instead of 2 from the first lie. The only condition of the provisional throw is determined by the status of the first lie, you can't say I'm only taking the provisional lie if it lands here.
Conditions of a provisional for probable abandonment would require that the status of the disc is unknown and is possibly lost, and group agrees it might save time and would be fair.
If the conditions could be specified clearly enough and objectively enough, there would be no advantage.
Others have talked about the objectivity issue, so I won't repeat that concern.
Another thing to consider is that it's good when a rule still gets players to play correctly even if they only have a fuzzy notion of the actual rule.
If a wider range of agreed-to conditions were allowed, players might misunderstand that to mean they can use conditions like: "If I can score better from my provisional, I'll use it." It might further morph into a general misunderstanding that you can basically play best throw with yourself.
Recall how many players would tell you that you can't call any violations on yourself last year? That was a result of inflation of one exception to calling one rule on yourself. The resulting overgrown general misunderstanding was a big reason to get rid of that little exception.
If he's thinking like I'm thinking, the decision about whether to use the provisional would be made before the provisional throw. (Just as in the current rules.) He's saying the trigger condition could be something other than OB/lost/missed.
For example, the cattails on the left side this hole are not OB. Say I threw over them and couldn't see whether my disc landed beyond them or in them. If I didn't want to squish around in there looking for my disc, I could say "If we don't find that throw on the short grass, I'll abandon it." Then, throw my provisional.
Group would still have to agree for the provisional and can deny it based on too vague conditions.That particular hazard would be one of the easier ones to apply such a rule to. With some inevitable debate if the disc is halfway in the cattails, or 6" in the cattails. There being no clear line.
Same hole, same hypothetical rule, player makes the conditional for the woods on the right side, even harder to make borderline calls. Much greater chance that, with the player knowing where the provisional lies, he argues that "this is not really in the woods" or "this is on the edge, but it's what I meant by in the woods".
Group would still have to agree for the provisional and can deny it based on too vague conditions.
At time of request.Deny it, at the time the provisional is requested, before it's thrown? Or when the first throw is located?
Provisional if i'm in Jail or OB or above 2 meters in a tree.
Player doesn't have a choice. The group decides the correct lie. The provisional abandoned throw would only not be used in rare cases where the shot got lucky, but is unknown at the time of the provisional.Define jail. A player should not have the choice between two throws. That is the crux of the matter.
Define jail. A player should not have the choice between two throws. That is the crux of the matter.
That particular hazard would be one of the easier ones to apply such a rule to. With some inevitable debate if the disc is halfway in the cattails, or 6" in the cattails. There being no clear line.
Same hole, same hypothetical rule, player makes the conditional for the woods on the right side, even harder to make borderline calls. Much greater chance that, with the player knowing where the provisional lies, he argues that "this is not really in the woods" or "this is on the edge, but it's what I meant by in the woods".
I see very few abandoned lies, and some of them are putts that rolled off to a really bad spot. Nothing that a provisional would save time on. I can't recall the last time I saw someone decide a drive was so bad that they abandoned it, in favor of a stroke and rethrow.
I was thinking it should be biased heavily toward the provisional throw. This would reduce the number of provisionals for abandonment and make it more risky/less likely to use it. It's basically an abandoned throw, but if your original lie somehow got lucky then you could still use the original throw and disregard the provisional.If we were to try to make this work, the bias would need to be toward using the original throw. The group would need to be convinced the condition was met.
That kind of goes against the grain of usually leaning toward a better result for the thrower, so that might not turn out to be how it becomes enforced out in the field.