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Hi guys, just want some debate around this, as I understand most people in here say you don't push off the back leg, it's rather just an weight shift from left to right, I also believe this to be the case, but I still think he might have a point about the "balancing" act on the left leg which I guess should help with the coil and also to get the most maximum weight shift on the front leg right before the throw.
This video makes no sense. The premise is that most ams are stuck on their front? I thought that most ams are stuck on their rear and dont weight shift fully.
He uses brodie as an example of "bad" form??? Brodie is a 1023 rated golfer who pushes 600ft on his drives ...
I saw this video and couldn't believe that anyone takes him seriously. In his analysis of Simon's throw he calls out the moment his knee moves inward; look at Simon's weight at that point. The knee only moves forward as the weight comes off the back foot. The disc isn't even to the power pocket yet! That is completely counter to what he teaches in terms of keeping the weight on the back foot and spinning that rear leg forward or the squish the bug move. Basically I think he is disproving his own form advice, but he keeps on trucking through the video lol.
I have criticized Slingshot, though I found it interesting that in the video linked by Thediscgolferguy he replied to the currently pinned comment:
"I teach it from a standstill / 1 step. Usually takes months to add an x step…because your right it's actually pointless unless the timing is right"
I respect some shared wisdom when I see it.
Where I take issue here regarding the rear/drive leg is that I would start with learning it like a golf swing or pitcher or batter's stride and shift rather than SS's technique because his own leg mechanics including his drive leg move are clearly different than well-established top pro mechanics and he spins out. I don't just mindlessly say these things - I've tried to use the SS leg mechanics and also find it impossible to swing correctly with a closed shoulder into the hit the way you'd want to if you look at any top thrower. Slingshot still throws with an open/rising shoulder and continues to use that arm compression sleeve. It's because he's not getting on top of his front leg after the x-step due to his drive leg maneuver and the compensatory action he developed with his core. I'm worried what shape the guy and his students will be in if he keeps this up for 10 years.
I'd suspect athletic people with strong legs can muscle a drive leg move in various ways. We see it around here. I also suspect MLB pitchers throwing 90-100mph have generally found an efficient drive leg move in sync with their body and gravity. Words are tricky and I'd leave it to the consumer whether they believe it involves a "push" or not.
Is Jelezny pushing? Would that even be what matters in this move? How would his drive foot kick up dust or gravel if he wasn't pushing? Puzzle through it:
Is Shiying pushing? Is this move or Zelezny's better? Why or why not?
Brodie's form has come a long way in the last couple years and his weight shift is looking a lot better - maybe he can still get more there.
This video makes no sense. The premise is that most ams are stuck on their front? I thought that most ams are stuck on their rear and dont weight shift fully.
He uses brodie as an example of "bad" form??? Brodie is a 1023 rated golfer who pushes 600ft on his drives ...
And while brodie doesn't use his whole body.
His ability to post up and brace is actually quite insane. He takes some really bad footwork and turns it into gold.
But he's not even using all of his body which is the scary part. His hips are bearly into the throw, They are there, but not like other big distance throwers. His upper body kinetic chain is absolutely insanely well timed to give him that BIG D.
I saw this video and couldn't believe that anyone takes him seriously. In his analysis of Simon's throw he calls out the moment his knee moves inward; look at Simon's weight at that point. The knee only moves forward as the weight comes off the back foot. The disc isn't even to the power pocket yet! That is completely counter to what he teaches in terms of keeping the weight on the back foot and spinning that rear leg forward or the squish the bug move. Basically I think he is disproving his own form advice, but he keeps on trucking through the video lol.
One thing that I think is really telling about slingshot is that his channel has no info whatsoever about putting, approach shots, shot shaping, forehand. It's purely like how to hit visual cues in form.
What I appreciate about SW22 besides having a larger breadth of subjects is he pulls from so many different examples and finds what's in common. IE feldberg, Eagle, Ricky, KJ, Drew, GG etc. so if my movement is closer to Ricky he will tailor it closer to that. Whereas SS is like a one size fits all prescription
Zelezny's, because he was effing magical perfection. The ultimate example of perfect form mixed with athleticism beating bigger and more powerful competitors.
This comment has little relevance to the current thread discussion, you just activated my inner fanboi.
One thing that I think is really telling about slingshot is that his channel has no info whatsoever about putting, approach shots, shot shaping, forehand. It's purely like how to hit visual cues in form.
What I appreciate about SW22 besides having a larger breadth of subjects is he pulls from so many different examples and finds what's in common. IE feldberg, Eagle, Ricky, KJ, Drew, GG etc. so if my movement is closer to Ricky he will tailor it closer to that. Whereas SS is like a one size fits all prescription
Well, if you watch and listen to his demeanor. its "My way is the best way, I've figured out ALL the secrets and nobody else has."
Just another youtuber out there making content that isn't willing to talk with other coaches and listen.
I mean at least josh listens to brychanus, but... he's not willing to talk to anyone else.
He's more concerned with building a brand than growing himself or other coaches.
MY goal is coaching and other coaches.
Not "lets build a youtube brand, tee hee, so i can get free stuff and hang out with pros"
Yeah, no, I build courses and events to hang out with pros.
Oh crap, Let me pick my wang back up off the ground there, it fell down my pantleg.
Sorry. Its 6am, and I'm a bit spicey for some reason.
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Slingshot: Part I
Alright, I'll bite. Again. Darn you, Coach Caricature T. This may be your greatest (disc golf instructional content) virtue.
Here's the embedded video if it makes it easier to follow along:
Breakfast of Donuts, Real or Imagined
First, on the energy of a Slingshot disc golf technique video comment section: have you ever been to one of those GET-RICH-QUICK financial seminars, like maybe about a FOOL-PROOF method of flipping houses for HUGE profits? Neither have I, but I listen to a lot of sports talk radio, so I've heard tons of colorful ads for this flavor of seminar. I enjoy the ads. The tone is boisterously distinct. And it's fun to imagine the disembodied radio pitch as a real-life person parading around with a real-life crowd hanging on every animated word. I'll probably buy a ticket to see the show someday. When I read the comment chatter on a Slingshot disc golf technique video, I'm reminded of these GET-RICH-QUICK radio ads. They push and shove their way past all the other metaphors in line. Come, picture it with me.
It's 8:55 AM and the forward arrow of time is ticking. I'm standing in line at the coffee table at one of these financial seminars. The presentation is about to start, but I really want one more cup of coffee as all the other guys in line like me do. Excited, lottery-like small talk weaves up and down while we wait. From the sound of the talk, everybody jonesing for more caffeine at this late hour is a first-time seminarian. A wiseguy near the front cracks: "Anybody who's already been is filthy rich."
Next to the coffee dispenser, there's a donut box with one last Donut surrounded by a battlefield of crumbs. Chocolate long john. My favorite. I forgot to grab breakfast when I rushed out the door to get to this life-changing seminar. As I wait in the line with all the other guys like me, my eyes flick restlessly toward the Donut. I fantasize mightily about having the Donut in hand, knowing that it will probably be snatched before I get to the front of the line. Still, the imagining – it's almost as good.
Sure, dgcoursereview is an echo chamber of sorts, too, but the atmosphere I breathe here feels less frenzied.
Speaker Credibility
Second, on the product being sold here: maybe you, the reader, are thinking, "But Coach T throws 500(!) feet. All his videos are prefaced with a clip of him crushing just like I want to crush. All the comments say how illuminating Slingshot secrets are. Plus Coach T drives a really nice car. I saw him park it at the Holiday Inn before the seminar started. I've never seen what kind of car you, SocraDeez, drive. So why should I trust what you say?"
I don't know, man. I've never coached anybody. I don't know any quick tips to get Big Distance. I don't care if any of the far-too-many words I've written on these forums help or do not help your disc golf swing. It's the theorizing and the discussion that brings me in*. I'm addicted to the slow march of my own swing progress, and I want to swap stories with fellow junkies. I don't know if I'll ever get to eat the Donut. But that's OK. I think.
*
and in the darkness binds me.
So then, in regards to author credibility and motivation, what do I want from you? Nothing more or less than a sympathetic audience so that I can story tell, from one swing-addict to another, for better and for worse.
What does Slingshot Disc Golf want from you? It's very simple:
Same Slingshot Sh*t
As other thread commenters have noted, the instructional content hawked here can be heaped onto the pile of same old Slingshot stuff strewn across multiple threads now. This back leg move or philosophy is clearly purposeful branding at this point: "If you're new to disc golf or you've been playing for 20 years, I'll just tell you that historically disc golf is taught on the front leg. That's where it's taught. It's one way to do it. It's one style. But it's not what the Pros are doing."
Refrigerate After Branding
It's pretty clever. Slingshot's ability to distinguish his instructional content from others is probably more important preservation-wise than teaching "good" technique. Long term pupil success matters less than his ability to sign new students up. Check out how many Youtube commenters proclaim "You're the only one teaching this!" Check out how many Youtube commenters proclaim the Truth of his instructional content followed by a "can't wait" to get out and try this tip – they haven't even evaluated it! But they know he's right. How on Earth?
Who Are the Slingshot Faithful
Plus, let's pause to consider his target instructional audience. Most of them have probably only been playing a couple years or so. Sport-specific-skill-wise, these folks are much closer to a 10-and-under Pee Wee championship than they are to a Super Bowl. What's the point? Pee Wee players improve upon their base skill at a much quicker pace than first round NFL draft picks do. Clearly, this is reflective of the superior ability of Pee Wee coaching staff, right? In other words, the probability that Brodie Smith will improve or gain distance using Slingshot disc golf technique is far far far far far far far far less than the probability that some of his other students/customers might improve or gain distance.
Who Cares About Distance
Is "improving" at the sport of disc golf solely a function of increasing throw distance? For Pete's Sake, no! Why then is the sole selling point of Slingshot instructional content "distance"? Just spitballin' here, but I'd say Slingshot emphasizes distance because it sells like after-Mass hotcakes. Distance instructional content is supremely saleable because:
(1) sex appeal – this can be measured by the propensity of one outlier distance throw to induce more "Wows" from the Owen Wilson's on your card than the "Wows" induced by banging 9/10 C1 putts over the same interval. Here's another way to test our distance is sexy hypothesis: Drew Gibson (1032-rated) and Andrew Marwede (1028-rated) score about the same relative to their competitors but have flip-flopped strengths/weaknesses: distance for Gibson and putting/accuracy for Marwede (yeah, I know, Marwede's got an all-time forehand throw, but it's reasonable to say that the limiting factor of elite forehand compared to elite backhand skill is distance potential). Which player generates more gossip in the disc golf technique tabloids? Hint: it's not just because of the tattoos.
(2) fun to practice – as a somewhat-young person who has played disc golf for a few years now, I'll say that practicing full-send throws in a field is more fun than practicing putts in the backyard. For me, field-practice has higher fun-factor than putting-practice because (a) you make the Frisbees fly, which will always be wondrous for us enthusiasts. I have, however, never paused to marvel at the magic of disc flight after floating one over the top band of the basket from 20 feet away. (b) increased dosage of feel-good neurochemicals from the increased movement through space during full-send field practice.
(3) threshold for success – it's easy to evaluate a "good" putt or close-range throw because the disc should come to rest in or almost in the basket. As you move farther away from the target, the range of acceptable results widens & reproduction becomes less of a concern. In other words, magnitude becomes more meaningful than direction* & one outlier or "good" distance throw feels more rewarding than one outlier or "good" putt/low-power throw*. So, what if I yoinked the throw 30 degrees to the right, and the disc screamed over a busy playground? It went FAR! The feeling of "Wow, I just did that!" is much dearer than that of "Can I do it again?"
*
Example of this magnitude over direction point: after a bad tee shot, have you ever heard the compliment, "Good Power, Though"? Why do we say this to each other?
*
Example of this repeatability point: if you ask a player, "How Far Do You Throw?", how skewed is their answer likely to be toward a few outlier distance shots? If you ask a player, "How Far Do You Putt?", how skewed is their answer likely to be toward a few outlier throw-ins?
Distance is sexy, fun to practice, and much easier to convince yourself that your true ability has improved from a handful of throws with less regard to where they landed.
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Slingshot: Part I (cont.)
Can Slingshot Play Disc Golf Good
I do not think that Slingshot is actually "good" at the sport of disc golf. I doubt that his exaggerated off arm move coupled with his back foot push/drive/explosion produces more good disc golf shots than it produces bad disc golf shots (especially at low power range). I'd wager that a common mistake with Slingshot form is missing right of the intended line plus some accidental nose up releases. Anecdotally, I can affirm that (some) amateur players with exaggerated Slingshot off-arm moves live squarely in Sprayin' Shots City.
Generally, as you learn to walk without rhythm along the shifting sand dunes of bad to good disc golf form, power and accuracy should increase in one another. Form changes that increase throw power should also increase throw accuracy AND form changes that increase throw accuracy should also increase throw power. The latter part of this proposition is much overlooked, but this is the wisdom that underpins advice like "Building from the Putt Back."
Sure, there are indeed power OR accuracy trade-off dynamics at play in the form of your swing – e.g., you probably shouldn't 360 all your distance drives* – but sound form changes can generally be evaluated as producing both increased power and accuracy. Slingshot's instructional emphasis on DISTANCE DISTANCE DISTANCE should be a red flag to savvy customers.
*
It's important to note that the trade-offs can be instructive, too, which is part of the message of Brychanus's Early to Late-Stage Form comparisons. An example of a more nuanced consideration than "Don't Always 360" might be: why does Paul McBeth seem to rotate more toward his toes/exhibit less plant leg extension on low-power-high-accuracy throws?
I generally think it's bad taste to criticize instructional content based on instructor playing ability, but my dude's entire shtick is "This is how I got to 500 feet. Come follow me." Every Slingshot video starts (and sometimes ends) with a carefully chosen clip of him launching a disc on a left-to-right distance line. Those clips constitute the entirety of his instructional authority. I'm not buying it.
In another comment that I've lost track of, Slingshot blames his decreased distance on weight gain. I've played with Jamie Mosier. Fat men with good form still crush it. Beware those who begin their advice with "Listen, I throw this FAR." Beware those who begin their evaluation of disc golf advice by asking, "Yeah, but how FAR do you throw?"
Shut Up Already and Give Me the Red Ferrari
Alright, final point not specifically related to some debate around what the back leg should do in the disc golf swing: injury. From the video:
"[Demonstrates a 'front leg' throw motion without a disc] If I do 10 of those in a row, cause I had this form, my heart rate's not gonna go up."
"If I do 10 of these. [Demonstrates a 'back leg' throw motion without a disc]. I'm already sweating after three so imagine if I did 10. [Chuckles]."
First, here's Kenny "The Champ" Climo emphasizing a "front leg" throw motion at a clinic:
Second, what a sound metric to evaluate sporting technique. Will following Slingshot disc golf technique increase the likelihood of injury among the faithful? I don't know, but he's super quick to publish this disclaimer in the comments after realizing that he had forgotten to do so in the video:
The disclaimer reads like a car salesman pitching a flashy, wiener-mobile sportscar to somebody desperate for one more taste of their youth: "By the way, please don't exceed the speed limit in this high-powered automobile, Sir. *Winks* We don't want you getting in any wrecks." More instructionally nefarious is this: if this technique doesn't help you, it's your fault because you're probably not athletic enough, pal. This sentiment is especially funny juxtaposed with Coach T's sign off in the video: "Slingshot's for everybody." Hmmm.
My dude is a better salesman than a coach, which is why his content generates so much darn discussion here. Yeah, there might be some wrecks – hopefully more fender benders than atom bombs. But I'm not worried. I've learned to love the Slingshot for motivating the discussion. Will any of the dozens of disc golfers already proclaiming the Truth of Back Leg Disc Golf in the Youtube comments ever read this part of the discussion? Probably not. But that's OK. I think.
Of the many quotable moments in these posts, many of which had me chuckling, the cumulative snark factor built to a crescendo and this finally had me cackle out loud:
Shut Up Already and Give Me the Red Ferrari
Alright, final point not specifically related to some debate around what the back leg should do in the disc golf swing: injury. From the video:
"[Demonstrates a 'front leg' throw motion without a disc] If I do 10 of those in a row, cause I had this form, my heart rate's not gonna go up."
"If I do 10 of these. [Demonstrates a 'back leg' throw motion without a disc]. I'm already sweating after three so imagine if I did 10. [Chuckles]."
It isn't as obvious in each of his carefully curated throws, but watch his rear foot frame-by-frame as he x-steps in the beginning of this video. You can see his ankle joint fluctuating as it strains to support his weight and get leverage as he internally rotates his leg. I'm a single anecdote, but trying this literally was one way I hurt my knee. And take it from a big dude - it is definitely a more effortful move than the shift mechanics we tend to talk about here.
If I'm learning anything right now, the drive leg is doing work. But I am willing to bet that a Jelezny and Wysocki move is certainly closer minimum effort/maximum payoff move than anything SS talks about. No, it's not easy to learn. Yes, I find power and accuracy advantages with it.
First, here's Kenny "The Champ" Climo emphasizing a "front leg" throw motion at a clinic:
Second, what a sound metric to evaluate sporting technique. Will following Slingshot disc golf technique increase the likelihood of injury among the faithful? I don't know, but he's super quick to publish this disclaimer in the comments after realizing that he had forgotten to do so in the video:
You know, it's so damn hard to learn any of this body motion stuff that maybe the net injuries in the long run won't be huge. But it might not be because people can do his technique, but because they can't. Even if they can and don't get hurt in droves, the fact that he is only a couple years into this and claiming he's losing/"not going for" distance, calling his drive leg action very effortful, is wearing assistive compression sleeves, and his actions look unlike any top pro I've seen among all the other reasons you cogently and hilariously stated keep me steering clear.
Note how much more pelvic and rear foot rotation Drew and I end up with by not trying to rotate it, and by finishing balanced on front leg. I'm not a doctor, but the motion pattern and finishing like Coach T doesn't look healthy IMO.
Try to twist/rotate your rear foot/leg to swivel your chair/pelvis, vs what I teach:
