First time I've seen this happen, looking for a ruling to settle a bet. Straight fairway uphill the whole way. My buddy overshoots the hole, has a downhill putt. He leaves his bag 30' down from the basket on the side of the fairway. Misses the putt, disc takes an edge and rolls right toward his bag. I pick his bag up (like a dick), and the disc rolls right where the bag was, plus another 30 feet downhill. He takes a 5, would have been an easy par if I stayed out of it. Long story short, my bad for interfering, or his bad for leaving the bag in that spot? Penalty strokes for either of us?
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Putt rolls but is stopped by player's bag?
- Thread starter Cronemus
- Start date
Buiscutboy
Double Eagle Member
My dad was in a tournament where someone got in trouble for that. It was probably called purposefully leaving the bag there to prevent possible rollaways. More like choosing a bad spot to put your bag, but whatever.
I'm not sure what the penalty was. I am sure there was one.
I'm not sure what the penalty was. I am sure there was one.
notroman
* Ace Member *
You are not interfering. If you can get to the bag in time to stop it from interfering with the disc, then great. If you can't, you play it where it lies (by the bag). I've seen people go the other way and try to stroke someone for NOT moving their bag in time. You're not required to move someone else's equipment away from a moving disc, but you're not prohibited either.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
No obstacle including people should be moved once a disc is in flight unless the person is in danger from being injured such as dodging a drive, but not a disc rolling away from basket. The proper call in this case is you getting a 1-throw penalty for moving an obstacle on the course per 803.01 A & D. The player who missed the putt still gets the result of what happened which was a 5. If you wanted the bag moved, you could have asked that it be moved before he made the throw but not once the throw is underway.
If you did not move fast enough and his disc struck the bag while you were in the process of moving it, the same thing would happen. You would get a 1-throw penalty and he would play the disc from wherever it ended up.
If you did not move fast enough and his disc struck the bag while you were in the process of moving it, the same thing would happen. You would get a 1-throw penalty and he would play the disc from wherever it ended up.
notroman
* Ace Member *
So you can't ask for someone to move their bag as a disc is rolling towards it? You have to make that call beforehand?
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Correct. One time you can ask another player to take action pertaining to your disc is if your disc is headed out of bounds into deep water, you can ask someone to try and stop it from going OB. If you do that, then your shot is treated like a lost disc and you rethrow with penalty. 804.03G
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
It's not considered good sportsmanship per 804.03F. But if no one calls you on it before your shot, there's no penalty. If the thrower's disc hits his bag in that position, another player could call a courtesy violation per 804.03F if it looked like a deliberate positioning of the bag.
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Allurex
* Ace Member *
Wait, so you're saying that people shouldn't move out of the way of discs? What about in large crowds at events and such?
I know you clarified except to dodge a drive to avoid injury, but what about rollers that are headed towards large crowds, and possibly OB? The crowd should just let the disc hit them and stay in bounds? Seems silly to me.
I tend to agree Allurex...my initial reaction was to get the bag out of the way, because I could easily do so, and it would alter the natural path of the shot if I didn't. Certainly not talking about injury territory, but if I don't move the bag, it wouldn't be fair to other cards (assuming a tourney) that didn't have the advantage of that putt being stopped? FYI the round was as casual as it gets, I just felt bad after I did it (especially since I also dropped his granola bar on the ground when I picked the bag up.). If Logan is reading this, I'm sorry your snack was dirty.
IronJack
Eagle Member
I'm not sure the cited rule supports this statement. All it says is that it is a courtesy violation not to move equipment, if requested, before a throw is made. What am I missing?
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If you can move out of the path of a moving disc, YOU SHOULD DO IT. Nothing in the rule supports the notion that you can't move yourself or a bag or a stool or whatever until the disc comes to rest.
The key word in the interference rule is "intentional". That means you have to have intent to interfere to be penalized. Moving out of the way of a moving disc, or picking up a bag so that a moving disc does not strike it is NOT INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, as the intent is clearly to not interfere.
I'd argue that if you have the opportunity to move yourself or a bag out of the way of a moving disc, choosing not to is intentionally interfering with the disc more so than attempting to get out of the way. The rule states that "[p]layers shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with a disc in play may occur." Note that there's no time component to that. Nothing that differentiates actions/inactions before, during, and after the throw.
Chuck's interpretation would have the rule dictating that once the disc is released, everyone and everything has to freeze until the disc comes to rest. I believe that the rule dictates that if a player or equipment is in a position where interference not only may occur, but will inevitably occur, then an effort to remove the person or equipment should absolutely be made no matter when the realization hits.
The key word in the interference rule is "intentional". That means you have to have intent to interfere to be penalized. Moving out of the way of a moving disc, or picking up a bag so that a moving disc does not strike it is NOT INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, as the intent is clearly to not interfere.
I'd argue that if you have the opportunity to move yourself or a bag out of the way of a moving disc, choosing not to is intentionally interfering with the disc more so than attempting to get out of the way. The rule states that "[p]layers shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with a disc in play may occur." Note that there's no time component to that. Nothing that differentiates actions/inactions before, during, and after the throw.
Chuck's interpretation would have the rule dictating that once the disc is released, everyone and everything has to freeze until the disc comes to rest. I believe that the rule dictates that if a player or equipment is in a position where interference not only may occur, but will inevitably occur, then an effort to remove the person or equipment should absolutely be made no matter when the realization hits.
JC, I get what you're saying, but HOW does a player "not know" that interference might potentionally occur before a throw, and then "the realization hits" while the disc is in motion? Sounds counter-intuitive to me.
How often do you (or anyone) examine the entire area around the target or your intended landing zone for potential interference? My point is that there is no time-frame limitation on when one can spot potential interference and try to rectify it before the interference happens. Just because you don't notice a bag set down on a slope or ask for it to be moved before the throw, doesn't mean it can't be moved after the throw has been released and before the disc has a chance to strike it.
And of course there's always the unexpected roll-away or tree carom in a direction you didn't anticipate which puts someone or something in the line of fire despite everyone assuming that location was "safe" before the throw was attempted.
My bag, sitting on the ground, was hit by a rollaway disc from another basket, 150 feet away.
You can't hold people responsible for everything that might happen.
I agree that to cause interference, it has to be intentional. Not just an intentional act (I intended to drop my bag or pick it up), but with the intent of interfering with the disc in motion. Someone moving a bag while the disc is rolling is intending to not interfere with its motion---even if, in the process, he accidentally does interfere.
If a player sets a bag down where it might stop his own roller, it's hard to say that's intentional unless, perhaps, you see him carefully aligning it for maximum benefit. On the other hand, if you point out before the throw that the bag might be in the way, and he declines to move it, you might infer intent.
You can't hold people responsible for everything that might happen.
I agree that to cause interference, it has to be intentional. Not just an intentional act (I intended to drop my bag or pick it up), but with the intent of interfering with the disc in motion. Someone moving a bag while the disc is rolling is intending to not interfere with its motion---even if, in the process, he accidentally does interfere.
If a player sets a bag down where it might stop his own roller, it's hard to say that's intentional unless, perhaps, you see him carefully aligning it for maximum benefit. On the other hand, if you point out before the throw that the bag might be in the way, and he declines to move it, you might infer intent.
Declarkus
Double Eagle Member
Great question. Whenever a rules question is brought up, it seems there is never enough clarification in the book.
"The rules shall be written vaguely, so a conflict of interpretation may occur."
kerplunk
Double Eagle Member
Besides the interference rule, the aspect of this story that bothers me is the picking up of a competitor's bag without their permission. Does that not bother anyone else? Of course in a casual round with a friend it is fine, but in a competitive round I would not be okay with that.
notroman
* Ace Member *
If a disc is coming at the bag and the competitor is not near it to move it themselves, I would feel the urge to pick it up. Doesn't bother me at all, and it wouldn't bother me if someone moved my bag to let a disc finish its flight.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Would you also pick up a loose branch that a disc was rolling towards? What's the difference between that and the bag? Neither are permanent parts of the course and both are casual obstacles per the rule definitions.
Kodachrome
* Ace Member *
Exactly.
You need to keep the bag there. Removing it is intentional. Duh. You are intentionally interfering with what's happening to the disc. End of story.
Moving yourself out of the way of the throw is different.
And there's no time component because it's already talking about what's happening during the throw. Would you like them to state that no movement Can occur 30 seconds prior to the throw until the disc has come to rest?
Either way we're talking about what's going on during the throw. Do you not know when a throw is happening? Do you not know when a disc has come to rest? You can't interfere with the disc. At all. Unless you yourself are avoiding it. It's quite simple.
The rules could be written better but willfully being ignorant doesn't help clarify things.
You need to keep the bag there. Removing it is intentional. Duh. You are intentionally interfering with what's happening to the disc. End of story.
Moving yourself out of the way of the throw is different.
And there's no time component because it's already talking about what's happening during the throw. Would you like them to state that no movement Can occur 30 seconds prior to the throw until the disc has come to rest?
Either way we're talking about what's going on during the throw. Do you not know when a throw is happening? Do you not know when a disc has come to rest? You can't interfere with the disc. At all. Unless you yourself are avoiding it. It's quite simple.
The rules could be written better but willfully being ignorant doesn't help clarify things.
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