RHBH critique please

[LiquidDivide]

I'm new to the sport, just really started playing this spring. I don't really know any experienced players to help critique me, so I'm hoping you friendly folks can give me some pointers. I mostly throw a wraith and valkyrie for my drives and I can get about 250' pretty consistently. My max is 320', and I'd love for that to be my average for now. Here's a video of three throws at normal and 25% speed. I think my biggest problem s I keep my arm to straight during the throw and I don't really get my weight over my front foot in time (this causes the nose up problem, I think). Is this an accurate observation? Should I be working on something else?

three throws

 

[LiquidDivide]

I had never embedded a video in a post before. This will make it easier to watch. Sorry for not doing it in the first post.

 

[psk6565]

Welcome to the sport!

1. On your approach you are leaning back and your front leg is extended pretty far so this causes a lack of momentum forward. You want to be leaning forward more, keep your torso more upright and keep your front leg closer under your torso.

2. Yes, your arm needs to bend at the elbow bringing the disc closer to your chest. As the disc passes your right peck you want to extend your arm straight.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Asian Style]

I don't feel qualified to go over fine details, especially since your max is farther than mine, but I can point out a few things that seem obvious to me.

Biggest reason your disc is flying nose up is because you're throwing it nose up.

http://imgur.com/77isS7C

http://imgur.com/xpHABLW

Other big things that come to mind but I'll let others elaborate or correct me:
Strongarming.
You're reaching too far back and it's messing with your balance. (I had the same problem)
Your throwing axis (think of your spine) is all over the place.
You're not bracing yourself against your front hip.
You do want to shift your weight to the front foot, but that doesn't mean actually putting your upper body "over" your front foot, you will lose balance from the momentum, refer back to the previous line about bracing.

 

[LiquidDivide]

Thanks! Judging from the first two posts, I think I need to work on my reach back (not reaching back/leaning back so far), pull through (bending the elbow), and cleaning up my footwork to get my balance and weight transfer down better. J think this will help quite a bit. I'll try to work on that this week and post a follow up next weekend (or whenever I think I've improved enough).

Thanks again both of you for your help!

 

[LiquidDivide]

Well, after a week of working on the suggestions, here is a video of 2 throws.



I struggled early on in the week trying to correct so many things at once, so I focused more on cleaning up the footwork first. I tried not to lean back during my run up and taking a shorter, more reasonable 3rd step. The result that I see is a much flatter disc on release. I'm not having those horrible nose up throws that were so frequent before. I also notice that I'm rotating my body much faster this way. I almost lose my balance sometimes during my follow through. I think that's a good sign, although losing my balance is probably not good.

I haven't bothered measuring any throws yet either. I want to give myself a good few weeks of focused work before seeing if there is any change in distance.

Is there anything I else need to clean up in the footwork or should I start focusing on my upper body now?

 

[slowplastic]

The purpose of the reach back and the footwork is to get your hips (and shoulders) turned away from the target, so that they can give more power. Right now your lead hip is pointed forward at the furthest reachback. You should be turning your hips further away from the target, and the X-step should be aiding in this.

Also if you pause the video at the reachback, the disc is under your rear arm. Get your rear arm out of the way, and turn your shoulders fully away from the target.

 

[LiquidDivide]

I noticed my back arm over the disc with that video too. Didn't realize I was doing that. I don't do it every time, but it's often enough I should focus on it more.

I'll try to work on my hips/shoulders/arms this week. Thanks for helping me out! I really appreciate it.

 

[slowplastic]

No problem, and some further advice that may be the best for the long run:

At those distances I'd definitely be throwing some midrange discs as well (I don't know what you are throwing in general, other than you just mentioned Wraith and Valk, which are both very fast). Those will help train you for nose-down issues, as you have found, but they are so fast that they can hide unclean releases.

If you also throw some midrange discs like a Roc or Buzzz or something along those lines (stable to very slightly overstable...essentially straight flying, speed 4/5) they should also be able to get up to 250' somewhat easily, but also show you if you are throwing them too hard/unclean by turning over. They will be less nose-sensitive than the drivers, so using these all in conjunction is likely a good method.

I'd also recommend trying to throw from a standing position a bit, so that you learn to use your hips/shoulders for rotation, and a weight shift...rather than depending on forward momentum from a run up, which I believe isn't as important. Once you can throw reasonably well from a stand-still and feel happy with that, add in your steps carefully to make sure it's enhancing the throw. Being able to only throw with a run up (and having no distance from stand-still) means you are just covering up a bad foundation with forward momentum.

 

[Asian Style]

I strongly agree with everything slowplastic mentioned. I would highly recommend taking the x-step out completely for now until you get a better feel in your throwing motion. You will be surprised when you throw farther standing still with a midrange than you do with a run up and a driver.

IMPORTANT! I make this mistake even when I know I shouldn't, when you are doing standing still throws, DON'T TRY AND KILL IT. If you feel your core tightening up and your muscles tensing, it's too much. Smooth, smooth is relaxed, I have to tell that to myself all the time. The power comes from shifting the weight, bracing the lower half, and opening the hips.

 

[LiquidDivide]

Thanks Asian Style. I was going to try starting out from a standing throw and working my way back up to an x-step. It just seems like the right way to go to fix everything. That video helps a lot. The left shoulder back should get my back arm out of the way. Do you really want to keep your head down the whole time though? That just sounds wrong. I can see starting off down, but I'd think you want to get your eyes on the target ASAP.

 

[sidewinder22]

Don't try to keep your head down, unless you don't care about your back.

 

[slowplastic]

I can see starting off down, but I'd think you want to get your eyes on the target ASAP.

After you've thrown/released what does it matter if you look at your target immediately, or half a second later during the follow through?

In order to get the full rotation on reachback it'll be impossible to look at the target. Eventually with practice you'll know exactly how to line up and burn an image in your head of how high/what line to throw on, and remember that during reachback. On some lower power shots/approaches when I am taking power off of my reachback I can watch the target the whole time, but not when I am throwing harder than 40 or 50%.

 

[LiquidDivide]

After you've thrown/released what does it matter if you look at your target immediately, or half a second later during the follow through?

I'd think you'd want to look at the target before you release. I can see losing the target for a bit during the reach back, but during the pull through you could be looking at the target. I'm not trying to argue, I just think it sounds difficult to release on time if you are looking down through the entire shot.

I played 9 holes during lunch today only using a mid-range with a standing throw and really focusing on my hips and shoulders. I was actually throwing probably around 220', only about 50' from my average drive before. That was really encouraging to me. I'm amazed there was only that much difference.

 

[Asian Style]

I think with practice, your release points become instinctual from muscle memory. I don't think looking at your target while you're throwing is as useful as lining up your throw properly before you begin and developing a routine. If you line your body up with the line you want, your throwing technique should be the same. I don't think you want to consciously try and manipulate your release point while looking at the target on a full drive.

So by all means, line up to the target (or more accurately the direction of the line you want to take which isn't always the basket) and then go into your routine and TRUST your technique. If you've practiced it enough, it should be consistent. If you are trying to move your head around in the throw as opposed to just keeping it in line with your spine, I think that will just throw your body out of position.

 

[Asian Style]

Thanks Asian Style. I was going to try starting out from a standing throw and working my way back up to an x-step. It just seems like the right way to go to fix everything. That video helps a lot. The left shoulder back should get my back arm out of the way. Do you really want to keep your head down the whole time though? That just sounds wrong. I can see starting off down, but I'd think you want to get your eyes on the target ASAP.

I mainly posted that video to help you visualize turning your shoulders because it helped me. Now with sidewinder22's help, I like to think of my spine and shoulders forming a "T" shape. The goal is to spin the T on the vertical axis as quickly and smoothly as possible without bending the T. I think in the video though, Will leans back quite a bit on his reach back (bending the T) and even though he is a way better player than me, I wouldn't recommend that as a starting point. The point was turn your shoulders more so your butt is facing your target.

As for the head down thing, I think you can tilt your spine forward to get over the disc more with your body but you shouldn't be hunched or craning your neck. Good posture, nice straight spine, head in line with your spine.

 

[LiquidDivide]

Hmm. I get what you're saying. It makes a lot of sense. That's going to take a great deal of practice. It's all great stuff, but probably going to take a lot longer than a week or two. I will continue working on this and slowly reworking the x-step back into my game. That'll probably take the rest of the summer though, so I'll start a new thread with any other questions/problems I run into. Thanks again everyone for all the help.