RHBH technique... from the ground up

[tom8658]

I know there are a million of these threads, but I couldn't find the answers I'm looking for by searching...

I throw RHBH, and was having a multitude of technique issues... my throw was all arm, almost no snap, and lots of wrist roll to create pseudo flex shots and get distance. When my D plateaued at 300', I decided it was time to work on my timing and learn to actually generate a 'hit', a la "Driving with Dan Beto" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nED7gcXobEo

At first, I could only get about 40 feet without having to roll my wrist over. After about a week of throwing 30-50 throws a day with my mids and putters (ions, wizards, up to rocs and a buzzzz), I can get the discs out to about 100'-120' on a flat throw or gentle hyzer. All of my throws are less than 10 feet of the ground.

This is how I set up for a throw -
1. Bring the pads of the thumb and pinky together and look for the crease that runs under the base of the thumb to between the pointer and middle fingers - this is the line that the rim of the disc sits in.
2. Take a comfortable grip from that position (pointer and pinky finger pads on the inside of the rim, middle and ring fingers stacked on pinky)
3. Tilt my wrist down like I'm shaking hands, somewhere between 30 and 45 degrees, being careful not to 'close' the wrist (i.e. not bringing the palm of the hand closer to the forearm)
4. With feet slightly apart and toes pointed slightly out, point the elbow at the target, then bend the elbow until the disc is at my right pec, slightly below the nipple line.
5. Turn slightly (probably 20 degrees or less) away from the target, then push off the back foot, trying to clear the back hip and rotate on the ball of the 'plant' foot, passively extending the elbow and wrist.

In general, my throws are flatter, more controlled, more accurate, and more consistent, so I am happy with the results, but I do have a few questions -

1. Is the wrist supposed to be 'closed' at the start of the right pec drill? I.e. should I try to bring my palm towards my forearm when I set my wrist?
2. Should the right pec drill from a standstill start with a rotation of the hips away from the basket?
3. At the hit, should i actively be trying to open my wrist and 'flick' the disc, or is the hit a passive thing that comes from the hips whipping the arm?
4. How far should I be throwing from a standstill before I start working on incorporating a reachback and an x-step?

Thanks for reading my novel... I love disc golf, and feeling like I'm out of commission is very frustrating. :wall:

I will try to get video if that will help.

 

[SpyderPride]

I believe you are supposed to explode with everything you've got during the right-pec drill. That includes using your arm and wrist. The key is to not use those muscles for speed up until that point, which is the point of elbow and wrist extension that adds to your acceleration and snap. Your wrist should be fine in a neutral to ever-so-slightly closed position.

I still have a long ways to go on this stuff also.

 

[SAxDrc]

1. Is the wrist supposed to be 'closed' at the start of the right pec drill? I.e. should I try to bring my palm towards my forearm when I set my wrist?
I would say no. from what I understand the wrist should be very loose and close a bit just from the arm moving forward. It might happen but don't try to do it.

2. Should the right pec drill from a standstill start with a rotation of the hips away from the basket?
I start with my hips at 90 degrees to the basket not 180 and focus more on what the arm is doing not the legs/hips. but I could be wrong.

3. At the hit, should i actively be trying to open my wrist and 'flick' the disc, or is the hit a passive thing that comes from the hips whipping the arm?



4. How far should I be throwing from a standstill before I start working on incorporating a reachback and an x-step?
I have heard 200' from a standstill with a putter/mid

I am going through a lot of the same issues you are. Here is a thread I posted recently that has some good replies. Also I tried my best to answer questions above.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18135

 

[tom8658]

I've seen that "more snap" video before, but I'll watch it again... thanks. I actually saw your thread while I was searching around.

1. Is the wrist supposed to be 'closed' at the start of the right pec drill? I.e. should I try to bring my palm towards my forearm when I set my wrist?

I would say no. from what I understand the wrist should be very loose and close a bit just from the arm moving forward. It might happen but don't try to do it.

That was my understanding too, and the "more snap" video seems to agree, that the whole point of throwing with the hips is to close the wrist passively so that it springs open and snaps the disk. But I have seen posters who suggest that you should try to actively open the wrist at the hit.

2. Should the right pec drill from a standstill start with a rotation of the hips away from the basket?

I start with my hips at 90 degrees to the basket not 180 and focus more on what the arm is doing not the legs/hips. but I could be wrong.

So do I, but the first thing I do from a standstill is rotate away from the target (with no reachback) anywhere from 10 to 20 degrees. Dan Beto does it inconsistently in his video on his standstill throws, but always rotates slightly away for his one-step and further.

Thanks for the responses!

 

[garublador]

1. Is the wrist supposed to be 'closed' at the start of the right pec drill? I.e. should I try to bring my palm towards my forearm when I set my wrist?
2. Should the right pec drill from a standstill start with a rotation of the hips away from the basket?
3. At the hit, should i actively be trying to open my wrist and 'flick' the disc, or is the hit a passive thing that comes from the hips whipping the arm?
4. How far should I be throwing from a standstill before I start working on incorporating a reachback and an x-step?

Thanks for reading my novel... I love disc golf, and feeling like I'm out of commission is very frustrating. :wall:

I will try to get video if that will help.

1. The wrist closing will happen on its own. The wrist should be parallel to the arm at the beginning of the right pec drill.

2. I find it easier to do a little weight shift and rotation but it's not necessary. Getting the feel for accelerating that late and getting into that positon are what's important with the right pec drill.

3. The way I understand, to really hit it you need to actively open the wrist. However, doing it at the wrong time can be counterproductive and actually inhibit wrist extension. I'd avoid it for now and get the feel for when the hit happens. Once you know when it happens you can add power by actively opening the wrist.

4. It depends on your goals. If you're looking to get to that last plateau where your fairway drivers are going 330'-350' you'll want to get your putters to 200' at least.

 

[SAxDrc]

Dan Beto does it inconsistently in his video on his standstill throws, but always rotates slightly away for his one-step and further.

he's got an account on this site if you want to PM him and ask specific questions.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/profile.php?id=6667
One of the great things about our sport is that it is still quite small and our "role models" are really accessible. Most ball-golfers don't have the opportunity to ask tiger woods for advice (unless they are a pretty lady of course)

 

[tom8658]

3. The way I understand, to really hit it you need to actively open the wrist. However, doing it at the wrong time can be counterproductive and actually inhibit wrist extension. I'd avoid it for now and get the feel for when the hit happens. Once you know when it happens you can add power by actively opening the wrist.

I think this is what he means when he talks about "slinging the other side of the disc" in the "more snap" video (vs slinging the middle of the disc for a putter) - actively opening the wrist to varying degrees at the hit. I think you're right, though, that it's too much to think about right now.

 

[notapro]

he's got an account on this site if you want to PM him and ask specific questions.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/profile.php?id=6667
One of the great things about our sport is that it is still quite small and our "role models" are really accessible. Most ball-golfers don't have the opportunity to ask tiger woods for advice (unless they are a pretty lady of course)

I don't think they need to be pretty...

 

[tom8658]

I don't think they need to be pretty...

In that case, I'm the Tiger Woods of disc golf.



Get it? Cuz my technique is off right now.

 

[progolfer33]

1. It can be slightly closed but not too much. Too much closing of the wrist will cause inconsistent releases. The main point of the pec drill is to get you to accelerate at the correct point in the throw.

2. No. Again, this is supposed to mimic an actual throw, and when the disc is at the right pec, your hips will be parallel to the target.

3. You only want your wrist slightly closed, but you do want to concentrate on snapping the wrist hard at impact. I.E. Your wrist will go from slightly closed to very open during the follow throw. However, the hip rotation is just as important as the wrist flick in gaining distance. Make sure you also "snap" your hips by rotating them hard through the throw. Work on hip rotation when you add a reachback.

4. I would stop doing the standstill throws as soon as you get the hang of accelerating hard through the hit. When you add the reachback, a couple things to keep in mind:
- The disc follows a straight line during the throw. You start with the arm fully extended back. Your feet should be planted parallel to the target, so you will have to rotate your shoulders until your sternum is almost facing completely behind the target. As the disc comes through, the elbow bends to allow the disc to stay on the straight line until you reach the point where the disc is on the right pec and then the rest is the same as the pec drill.
- Your eyes will have to come away from the target in order to get a full reachback. I would try not to look completely backward, but your head will have to move to accommodate the shoulder rotation.

 

[garublador]

I think this is what he means when he talks about "slinging the other side of the disc" in the "more snap" video (vs slinging the middle of the disc for a putter) - actively opening the wrist to varying degrees at the hit. I think you're right, though, that it's too much to think about right now.

Correct. The advice I was given was to keep your wrist almost limp initially to get the feel for when the hit happens. You won't get maximum snap that way, but you won't be preventing wrist extension, either.

 

[tom8658]

I've been getting out in the field as much as I can, but not as much as I would like. I'm still topping out at 100'-120', and I've got some more questions.

- How do you cue yourself to initiate late acceleration from the right pec? Do the hips or the upper body start moving first? Should I be pulling with my elbow and allowing my hips to open, or should I start with hip rotation and then start pulling from the elbow?

- What kind of flight should I be getting out of my discs? I realize this is kind of a vague question, but if I throw with a lot of snap, at chest level, and a nose down release with no hyzer angle, should everything fly basically straight, and then fade out varying degrees as it slows down? Or should my understable mids be turning over slightly because of the snap on the disc? Should the discs actually climb after release? I can't imagine a putter going 200 feet right at chest level...

- In the Dan Beto video with the right pec drill, it looks like he is not just "punching towards the target", but also pulling his arm downwards slightly to force the nose down. Should I be worried about this, or is that an individual thing that will come with practice?

 

[SAxDrc]

here is my attempt at helping, but I'm not good at all. I only throw like 250' tops. maybe take my advice and do the opposite?

I've been getting out in the field as much as I can, but not as much as I would like. I'm still topping out at 100'-120', and I've got some more questions.

- How do you cue yourself to initiate late acceleration from the right pec? Do the hips or the upper body start moving first? Should I be pulling with my elbow and allowing my hips to open, or should I start with hip rotation and then start pulling from the elbow?
Don't move your arm at all until you plant your right foot. I think of smoothly bending my elbow until the disc is in front of my right nipple and after it clears the nipple, violently extend from the elbow.
When I throw my hips are as follows:
pre throw-facing target.
1st step- 90 degrees away from target
2nd step- 180 degrees from target
plant step-hips open and face target as I throw


- What kind of flight should I be getting out of my discs? I realize this is kind of a vague question, but if I throw with a lot of snap, at chest level, and a nose down release with no hyzer angle, should everything fly basically straight, and then fade out varying degrees as it slows down? Or should my understable mids be turning over slightly because of the snap on the disc? Should the discs actually climb after release? I can't imagine a putter going 200 feet right at chest level...
I would say try to get the disc to hold whatever line you put it on. If you throw straight it should stay straight. A hyzer line should hold the hyzer and anyhyzer should stay anhyzer (except for some fade at the end) It seems like discs should climb some but probably shouldn't fly more than 8-10 feet high depending on the glide of the disc. if they are going higher you might be having some nose angle problems. and I'm pretty sure putters can go 200' at chest level.

- In the Dan Beto video with the right pec drill, it looks like he is not just "punching towards the target", but also pulling his arm downwards slightly to force the nose down. Should I be worried about this, or is that an individual thing that will come with practice?
the only thing I think of when you say "pulling his arm downwards" is that for an anhyzer shot the arm motion is more high to low where with hyzer it is low to high. I really have no idea on this though. that was just a lame attempt.

I apologize if this ends up just being bad advice. I feel like if i think stuff through and write it out it might help me with my own throws.

 

[MopMan]

OP, here is what worked for me. I can now throw ~250 to ~275 fairly consistently with my feet planted and no reachback, though over 250 I start to lose control and placement.

I place the disc right up against my right pec as though I were doing the pec drill. I place my feet comfortably on the ground, left foot directly behind right foot from target. I twist up my entire body from my knees up through to my shoulders, keeping the disc on my right pec. I untwist, accelerate through the hit, and watch the disc fly.

I use no curling in of the wrist.

IMO, you would be hard pressed to get the disc to go very far at all using just your arm to launch the disc from pec position with no rotation. If I get 50 feet from that 'pure' right pec exercise, I feel lucky.

Here is a thread I posted a few weeks ago when I had a breakthrough in this area. You might find it useful:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17732

Another thing I have found: Several times I have developed a blister on either my thumb or my forefinger and have had to take a break for a few days. This tells me that I am indeed getting a very healthy pinch on the disc. I take this as a good sign. Plus, callouses are forming now, so I might not need to take many more days off!

 

[SpyderPride]

my thoughts on form

From what I've read and think I understand, my thoughts on form from the plant forward are as follows:

1. From the reach-back position, when the forward foot plants, fire the hips open toward the target.
2. While this is happening, guide the disc from the reach-back to your forward pec/nipple. Shoulders have not turned much at this point.
3. As hips continue to fire open, torso torque builds and begins to bring the shoulders around. Disc is near forward pec/nipple at this point.
4. Explode arm toward target, as per the right-pec drill, concluding at the hit with wrist extension and a tightening of the grip. If the timing is correct, the velocity generated from the hips torquing the shoulders will add to the arm and wrist extension velocity.
5. Allow your whole body to rotate and follow through.

This is what I am working towards, so let me know if there is anything fundamentally flawed with it. Of course, every step listed happens in a tiny fraction of a second, so timing is a huge issue. And there are more variables to account for, but these are the general motions. This theory of what is going on meshes well with a good golf swing, which I know very much about from years of experience (when everything came together correctly and the ball met the sweet spot on my driver, I'd be looking at 325+ yds, almost 1000').

Please comment.

 

[garublador]

I can take a stab at some small corrections, but don't take this as gospel.

1. From the reach-back position, when the forward foot plants, fire the hips open toward the target.

I think there's a weight shift that happens after you plant your foot but before your fire your hips open. Firing your hips too early will cause griplock.

2. While this is happening, guide the disc from the reach-back to your forward pec/nipple. Shoulders have not turned much at this point.

The shoulders turn to parallel with the intended line at the same time as the disc is guided to your forward pec. If your shoulders haven't turned at this point you're either way out of position or you didn't get turned away from the target during your reach back. For your shoulders there's three different movements. One where they go from facing away to parallel to the line, then they slow down while the arm gets into position then they rotate quickly at the hit and through the follow through.

3. As hips continue to fire open, torso torque builds and begins to bring the shoulders around. Disc is near forward pec/nipple at this point.

This sounds right. Your shoulders will be parallel to the target at this point.

4. Explode arm toward target, as per the right-pec drill, concluding at the hit with wrist extension and a tightening of the grip. If the timing is correct, the velocity generated from the hips torquing the shoulders will add to the arm and wrist extension velocity.
5. Allow your whole body to rotate and follow through.

This stuff sounds right, too.

FWIW, I think it's interesting to know this stuff, but in practice it's quite a bit easier to work from the hit back. If done correctly everything will happen at the right time because your built your form that way. If you start from the x-step forward you have to try to get everything timed right.

 

[SpyderPride]

One where they go from facing away to parallel to the line, then they slow down while the arm gets into position then they rotate quickly at the hit and through the follow through.

This part sounds incredibly difficult: changing the speed of your shoulder rotation. Rotate to parallel, slow down so the arm can catch up, then continue with the rotation faster than any before it. Is there any kind of a special mechanism to make this happen? Is it the opposing inertia of the arm/disc? Or do you just manually do it?

I'm trying to find a ball golf swing analogue, but I don't think I've ever heard of anything like this. There has been so much professional work done on the mechanics of the golf swing that I think if I can bridge the gap, so to speak, I can translate what I know. The only thing I can think of is that the incredible opposing rotational force caused when you fire the clubhead forward with your rear arm and wrist will have the effect of slowing down the shoulder turn. This is not discussed anywhere, but it may happen. Perhaps it is time to look at some high-speed film of Tiger... again...

 

[SpyderPride]

I'm also a pretty firm believer that you can't teach timing. You can teach the sequence of events needed to acheive good timing, but the timing itself comes from hours upon hours of repetition so your mind/body can instinctually determine the timing that yields the best results. It all happens so fast that most, if not all, people's conscious mind cannot process the information quickly enough. It can take a stab at it, then judge by the results, then its the unconscious mind's job to store that timing so it can be repeated. The more times you get it right, the easier it will be to repeat in the future. Hence the hours upon hours of repetition. Truly gifted natural atheletes need not apply (their conscious mind has a more direct link to the unconscious; basically geniuses of a different sort).

 

[tom8658]

I'm ignoring the reachback and the run-up at this point, since my goal for the field practice right now is to be able to consistently throw flat, straight, nose-down shots 150'...

It sounds like right now, I'm not getting my hips through. Whether that's the cause of all my other problems, or just one more thing, I don't know, but and the only way I can get appreciable snap on the disc is to abruptly stop my follow-through, which makes my elbow ache.

I'm also definitely not getting the nose down with any consistency. Almost every shot past about 50 feet gains altitude and stalls out.

In short, SpyderPride is absolutely right, I just need more practice, which means I need to find more *time* to practice...

Thank you all for your replies, they're been very helpful.

 

[Unblvbl]

I've been playing DG for a while and my form still isn't where I want it to be. I'm a RHBH thrower and on my drives, my wrist/palm faces upward upon release of the disc. This obviously isn't the best technique and, I believe, killing my distance. I throw 300' - 320' consistently but have hit the proverbial plateau. :wall: :doh: :wall:

Any suggestions/advice on proper hand position upon release/follow-through?

Thanks!



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