[Innova] Roc paper scissors

[Jungle Tim]

You've been served

But since they are getting their butts handed to them 80% to 10%, you could make the argument that Discraft marketing needs to step up their game.

Hell yeah, I recently started replacing my lost discs with Discraft discs just out of interest to what their discs can do, i think they have the mid ranges down. However their drivers are not quite up to par with Innova. Out came the Destroyer and Discraft responded with a Force, not exactly every mans driver! I also bought a Tracker when i lost my Tbird, (Zplastic) but I really dont think that Discraft have anythign that can touch a Tbird.

However, on the plastics front IMO there is very little between the Innova and Discraft all the plastics are comparable, (previous posts) but FLX gives an option that innova do not, so perhapse Discraft have the edge.

On another note

ThreePutt ever thought about writing out a history of DG, every other sport have many books on their history fully of rumors and hearsay, however DG is young enough to have it on paper in stone....

 

[Three Putt]

Are you sure about that? I've got two KC Pro Eagles that are definitely much stiffer than today's Pro plastic.

ERic

"Pro" plastic is a big range. Some of the discs that were stamped "Pro" are what is called "Proline" plastic which is just this side of CE (CE being the stiffest premium plastic I can recall.) They have also switched suppliers, so todays Pro feels different from the Pro of two or three years ago. So Pro plastic varies from run to run, but the Aviars and Rocs have always been made out of a Pro/DX mix that is different from the drivers.

On that note, I got a really weird soft 12X KC Roc last year, so THAT plastic varies from run to run as well.

So does the plastic vary enough that you could get a driver from one run that feels like a Roc in another run? That is all together possible, my man.

 

[ERicJ]

My KC Pro Eagles are "10X bar stamps" if that tells you what year they are; I'm too much of a newbie on disc history to know. I've got a Proline Beast and it's definitely different plastic from that. The Beast feels much more like a Champion disc. The Eagles feel a lot more like DX.

ERic

 

[Three Putt]

Hell yeah, I recently started replacing my lost discs with Discraft discs just out of interest to what their discs can do, i think they have the mid ranges down. However their drivers are not quite up to par with Innova. Out came the Destroyer and Discraft responded with a Force, not exactly every mans driver! I also bought a Tracker when i lost my Tbird, (Zplastic) but I really dont think that Discraft have anythign that can touch a Tbird.

However, on the plastics front IMO there is very little between the Innova and Discraft all the plastics are comparable, (previous posts) but FLX gives an option that innova do not, so perhapse Discraft have the edge.

On another note

ThreePutt ever thought about writing out a history of DG, every other sport have many books on their history fully of rumors and hearsay, however DG is young enough to have it on paper in stone....

That's funny. When I really started to get serious about disc golf, Discraft had nothing to compete in the mid-range market, but they had the Cyclone which was at least equal to the Gazelle (the Gazelle was actually Innova's attempt to copy the Cyclone) and the X-Clone was the best sidearm/forehand disc out there. Scott Stokely held the distance record with and X-Clone for a long time. They followed that up with the XL, and Stokely broke his own record with an XL. At that point Discraft had taken the lead in Distance discs. It was hard to throw an XL in '98, because they would sell out the minute anyplace got some.

Of course, the next year Innova came out with the Eagle and the TeeBird and never looked back.

As for the history of the sport...plenty of people know more than me. Tom Monroe or somebody like that should write a book. Gregg Hosfeld should write a book. I don't need to write a book, I can post my little bits of knowledge here and there.

 

[garublador]

Hell yeah, I recently started replacing my lost discs with Discraft discs just out of interest to what their discs can do, i think they have the mid ranges down. However their drivers are not quite up to par with Innova. Out came the Destroyer and Discraft responded with a Force, not exactly every mans driver! I also bought a Tracker when i lost my Tbird, (Zplastic) but I really dont think that Discraft have anythign that can touch a Tbird.

IMO, it makes more sense to look at it on a disc by disc basis rather than on a category by category basis. Discraft doesn't have anything that's both as long and as straight as the Teebird, but Innova doesn't have an overstable driver that's as long and truly stable like the Predator. Both companies have great, versatile drivers (Cyclone and Gazelle are really similar and the XL, TL and Eagle are all good, too), great hyzer-flip distance drivers (Valk, Viking, XS, Wildcat), great stablish, predictable distance drivers (Avenger, Starfire-X) and the two companies have been toe to toe on the really fast stuff. All this isn't even considering smaller companies like Gateway, Millennium and DGA, even if they do have ties to the larger companies.

If you take four players with equally great disc skills and force each of them to use only one company (one Innova, one Discraft, one Gateway and one Millennium) I don't think any of them would have an advantage or disadvantage compared to the others.

 

[Three Putt]

My KC Pro Eagles are "10X bar stamps" if that tells you what year they are; I'm too much of a newbie on disc history to know. I've got a Proline Beast and it's definitely different plastic from that. The Beast feels much more like a Champion disc. The Eagles feel a lot more like DX.

ERic

To be real honest with you, my oldest child was born two months before Climo won his 10th. I spent a lot more time thinking "don't break the baby" back then than I did about the plastic in KC Eagles.

What I do recall is that starting in about '98 Innova experimented with their plastic A LOT. Some of the mixes were so different that they labeled them as SE (Special Edition) plastic, which was Innova speak for "we tried something that turned out different than what we expected, but we are going to sell them to you anyway." That's why no one can tell you what SE plastic feel like...every run was different. Sometimes they would just stamp them with the regular stamp and send them out. I have DX discs that feel like Pro. I have Pro discs that fell like Champ.

I don't have any direct recollection of it happening, but it would not really surprise me to see a KC Pro driver in a plastic very close to KC Pro Roc plastic.

 

[bikedoctor]

IMO, it makes more sense to look at it on a disc by disc basis rather than on a category by category basis. Discraft doesn't have anything that's both as long and as straight as the Teebird, but Innova doesn't have an overstable driver that's as long and truly stable like the Predator. Both companies have great, versatile drivers (Cyclone and Gazelle are really similar and the XL, TL and Eagle are all good, too), great hyzer-flip distance drivers (Valk, Viking, XS, Wildcat), great stablish, predictable distance drivers (Avenger, Starfire-X) and the two companies have been toe to toe on the really fast stuff. All this isn't even considering smaller companies like Gateway, Millennium and DGA, even if they do have ties to the larger companies.

If you take four players with equally great disc skills and force each of them to use only one company (one Innova, one Discraft, one Gateway and one Millennium) I don't think any of them would have an advantage or disadvantage compared to the others.

You may find David's response interesting. And he owns a disc golf company. Insightful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYfytPTs5qU

 

[bikedoctor]

I think that was a Freudian slip there... don't speak discraft... innova has a plastic called "star"! Ha! Maybe I'm the only one to find that funny.

Dude you Roc. I can be such an Orc sometimes.

 

[Three Putt]

IMO, it makes more sense to look at it on a disc by disc basis rather than on a category by category basis. Discraft doesn't have anything that's both as long and as straight as the Teebird, but Innova doesn't have an overstable driver that's as long and truly stable like the Predator. Both companies have great, versatile drivers (Cyclone and Gazelle are really similar and the XL, TL and Eagle are all good, too), great hyzer-flip distance drivers (Valk, Viking, XS, Wildcat), great stablish, predictable distance drivers (Avenger, Starfire-X) and the two companies have been toe to toe on the really fast stuff. All this isn't even considering smaller companies like Gateway, Millennium and DGA, even if they do have ties to the larger companies.

If you take four players with equally great disc skills and force each of them to use only one company (one Innova, one Discraft, one Gateway and one Millennium) I don't think any of them would have an advantage or disadvantage compared to the others.

You may find David's response interesting. And he owns a disc golf company. Insightful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYfytPTs5qU

I think they were saying different things. Garublador was saying that a player using only company A's discs would not have an advantage over a player only using company B's discs or only company C's discs. Each lineup would have it's strengths, each would have it's weaknesses, and it would all even out.

What the Daviar was saying was that if you let somebody throw discs from company A, B and C they would have an advantage over a player using only company A or only company B or only company C. The player using only one company would still have the lineup with strengths and weaknesses, while the player using all companies could chose the best disc regardless of company and reduce the weaknesses of his disc selection.

I think they are both valid points.

 

[garublador]

What the Daviar was saying was that if you let somebody throw discs from company A, B and C they would have an advantage over a player using only company A or only company B or only company C. The player using only one company would still have the lineup with strengths and weaknesses, while the player using all companies could chose the best disc regardless of company and reduce the weaknesses of his disc selection.

I agree with that, too. That was the point of that first, larger paragraph in my last post. Being able to choose the best molds from each company would be an advantage over being tied to any one company. Once you have a really good skill set I'm not sure it's that big of an advantage, though. I think the Innova guys have proved that many times over. Although, if you're an amateur (which includes almost everyone on here) the advantage can be pretty helpful.

 

[Texconsinite]

If thats the case, then why dont we see more team Lightning and team Gateway members winning PDGA tourneys? Diversity of disc selection helps even the pros IMO

 

[PhattD]

Team Innova wins the most because they sell more discs, have more money, can do more for their team members and therefore attracts better players.

 

[Rbuzz9]

i dont think the sales of each company translates to the success of each team's Pros (at the worlds) at all - Discraft and Innova seem to be equally competitive at the pro level. According to their websites Discraft actually has the larger number of sponsored pros - if you look at tourney results you'll see guys from both squads finishing near the top all the time. I think becoming sponsored is very selective. Yes a lot more people may start up using Innova, but their pro team isnt 5x larger than Discraft's. These pros are definitely talented and could probably throw any discs they wanted. I dont know how willing they would be to switch sponsors - where it would take a little time to acclimate to using new discs. This isnt like switching from CCM to Bauer skates, it's more like switching from an aluminum bat to a wooden bat - where you will suck for a while until you get the hang of it. Since winning championships and tournaments helps attract people into buying their stuff - each company spends lots of money for their pros. Cant say one pro team is better to be on until someone on the top tier switches teams.

 

[Three Putt]

Cant say one pro team is better to be on until someone on the top tier switches teams.

Cam Todd won World's in 2001 for Innova, switched to Discraft toward the end of 2002 (shortly after the Wasp was introduced.) Word was he was miffed that Innova would not give him a signature disc. When Discraft introduced the Challenger the following spring, they had a special "Cam Todd" edition. Leslie Herndon also switched, she had won the USWDSC in 2000 and 2001 for Innova.

Both of them continued to play at a high level. In 2003 Cam finished 8th in Worlds in MPO and Leslie finished 5th in WPO. In 2004, Cam finished 5th in Worlds in MOP and Leslie finished 3rd in WPO. Cam finished 4th at USDGC in 2003, and tied for 2nd in 2004.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you talk to) they both quit the sport after the 2004 season. But based on the short period of time they were around, the switch did not seem to have any long-term effect on their performance.

 

[Rbuzz9]

very cool good story

the whole bigger company thing = getting better players doesnt hold any water

 

[garublador]

If thats the case, then why dont we see more team Lightning and team Gateway members winning PDGA tourneys? Diversity of disc selection helps even the pros IMO

I never said a pro wouldn't be at a disadvanage if they threw Lightning.

John McCray has been a top rated pro for a few years IIRC. Justin Bunnell is pushing 1020 too. Nikko Locastro has a 1020 rating, was on the top card at Worlds for a round this year and is quite a bit younger than most of the upper level players.

Mostly it's a numbers game. Innova and Discraft just have that many more players than Gateway.

Steve Ricco is one of the top players and he isn't sponsored. If being able to choose all discs from all companies is that big of an advantage, why hasn't he won both Worlds and the USDGC? His rating is higher than Ken Climo, Barry Schultz and Nathan Doss.