Roller tournament format.

[Doofenshmirtz]

I'm probably reinventing the wheel, but here goes . . .

I want to run a tournament that requires a certain number of rollers be thrown by each player. I'll call it a Roller Derby (I know). For background, this is on a newish, 21-hole disc golf course on a 9-hole golf course. Almost all of the holes use at least part of the golf fairways which are fantastic for rollers. Anyway, here is what I have come up with as far as written rules. I'd hand these out before the tournament along with a score card on which to keep a tally of the rollers that have been thrown by each player during the round.

"All PDGA Rules remain the same except as modified below:

Rollers:

A Roller is a throw made in which the disc rolls on its edge on the playing surface for any distance before it comes to rest.

Scoring:

1. Beginning Score:

Each player begins the round with 21 throws.

2. Scoring rollers:

A. Each player is afforded a "budget" for rollers in two categories: 1) Throws from the tee; and, 2) All other throws. Budgeted throws are not counted when scoring a hole.

B. Each player is budgeted 6 throws from the tee.

C. Each player has an additional budget of 15 for rollers thrown from any part of the course.

Explanation: The total roller budget is 21 throws. Each player may throw up to 21 rollers, six of which must be thrown from the tee, without those throws being counted for scoring purposes. All throws of any type that fall outside the budget, including rollers, count toward the player's score."


Requiring some tee shots to be rollers may be unnecessary. However, I didn't want a player to be able to avoid throwing any rollers from the tee by using up their roller budget on long putts. Any thoughts?

 

[biscoe]

I actually like the idea of everything that is not a roller counting towards score and your first 21 rollers not counting. We do some roller rounds where everything outside of circle 2 has to be a roller but I like your format better. I do think it will be necessary to force the rollers off the tee.

 

[Sewer bill]

How would you deal with this situation:

I step up to tee. Throw an enormous anhyzer that does in fact end up as a roller for several feet but burns over almost immediately and the disc spent 95% of the distance covered in the air.

Is it a roller?

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

How would you deal with this situation:

I step up to tee. Throw an enormous anhyzer that does in fact end up as a roller for several feet but burns over almost immediately and the disc spent 95% of the distance covered in the air.

Is it a roller?

Yes. That is already answered by the definition of "Roller." Any roll makes it a roller.

 

[biscoe]

How would you deal with this situation:

I step up to tee. Throw an enormous anhyzer that does in fact end up as a roller for several feet but burns over almost immediately and the disc spent 95% of the distance covered in the air.

Is it a roller?

Yes per the rules. Defining what constitutes a roller was the part of the roller only rounds that was most difficult. We eventually settled on the same thing as Doof- any roll at all is good.

 

[Sewer bill]

Yes per the rules. Defining what constitutes a roller was the part of the roller only rounds that was most difficult. We eventually settled on the same thing as Doof- any roll at all is good.

Sign me up boss.

 

[BillFleming]

Heck, I'd go for this. I threw a regular forehand off the tee the other day, hit a tree a ways down the fairway and that caused the disc to go to the ground and roll about two feet. But, heck, that's a roller off the tee.

 

[ru4por]

Sounds like a fun league night. I would have no interest in doing it for a tournament. Well.....nearly all large spike hyzers roll a bit.

 

[Steve West]

When I did roller days for a beginner league the rule was you had to TRY to throw a roller off the tee, but if you didn't like it you could disregard it.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Interesting concept.

Yes. That is already answered by the definition of "Roller." Any roll makes it a roller.

Guess that makes rollaway putts a tad more forgiving if the player can fit them within their budget of 21rolls.

 

[ILUVSMGS18]

This sounds like a whole host of fun, and I'll be bagging my Baobab/Stego, Xenon/CapRap/FAF Firebird, and some sort of US driver probably a A SS, but it could just as easily be anything that's flat and flippy.

If I throw a "roller" and it hits the leading edge of the cage and rolls in, does that count as a roller, and as such could you theoretically score a 0 on a hole that way?

 

[DavidSauls]

The sticky part, as others have mentioned, is the definition of "roller". The concept is to distinguish intentional rollers from accidental rollers.

There are all sorts of accidental rollers. I've had accidental rollers roll over 100', and deliberate rollers fail to roll at all.

You might partially alleviate this by having players declare they're using one of their budgeted rollers, prior to the throw.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Here's a format with incentives to throw rollers off the tee. Players have to throw at least one roller on every hole. If they throw it off the tee, the stroke doesn't count. Any roller not thrown from the tee is just a normal stroke. If they do not throw one at all, tack on a penalty stroke on that hole. With this format, everyone will likely roll off the tee on every hole to gain the free stroke. So, maybe limit the free stroke option on up to ten tee shots of player choice or on ten specific tees that you identify.

At our annual Moir Mystery event where rollers are sometimes required, the player must declare they are attempting a roller. The group judges whether the disc went more than half of its distance in "roller orientation" meaning the disc flew/rolled closer to vertical angle than horizontal. It's not that hard to judge, even on intentional cut rollers.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

The sticky part, as others have mentioned, is the definition of "roller". The concept is to distinguish intentional rollers from accidental rollers.

There are all sorts of accidental rollers. I've had accidental rollers roll over 100', and deliberate rollers fail to roll at all.

You might partially alleviate this by having players declare they're using one of their budgeted rollers, prior to the throw.

My intention with the it-is-a-roller-if-it-rolls rule was to take away as much subjectivity and potential conflict as possible. I too have unsuccessfully attempted to throw a roller before. Why wasn't it a roller? Because it didn't roll. An "accidental roller" is a roller. Why? Because it rolls. Defining a roller as a disc that rolls makes the rule easy to enforce and requires virtually no interpretation or search into any player's intent.

I get the desire to not let players benefit from a lucky rollaway or a spike hyzer that kicks up and rolls when the player wasn't even trying to throw a roller. But the flip side is then to add an additional stroke to a player who intends to throw a roller but just throws a bad shot. To put it in other terminology, I see no difference in punishing a player who accidentally fails to throw a roller and rewarding a player who accidentally succeeds in throwing one. The net effect is a one throw swing either way. And you have to penalize the thrower who attempts but fails to throw a roller or anyone could just declare that they are attempting a roller and throw "normally."

 

[Countchunkula]

I really do think Doof's solution is the best one. Maybe not the most fair way to do it, but the most straightforward with the least amount of judgement needed. Did it roll or didn't it should be cut and dried.

Any places on the course where a sky roller might land blind from the tee?

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Here's a format with incentives to throw rollers off the tee. Players have to throw at least one roller on every hole. If they throw it off the tee, the stroke doesn't count. Any roller not thrown from the tee is just a normal stroke. If they do not throw one at all, tack on a penalty stroke on that hole. With this format, everyone will likely roll off the tee on every hole to gain the free stroke. So, maybe limit the free stroke option on up to ten tee shots of player choice or on ten specific tees that you identify.

This was my first inclination - to require one roller on every hole. My scoring solution is basically the same as yours - I just added in the "uncounted" throws up front to end up with a final score that could be compared to an ordinary round.

Unfortunately, not every hole on this course is conducive to rollers. At least six holes have 90° water hazards off the tee. One of those is short with the basket on a 30° incline (top left to bottom right) with OB at the bottom of the incline on the right. There is no reasonable roller shot on any part of that hole. The other five have the water hazards at the bottom of hills. So I modified the rule to allow the rollers to be thrown anywhere. That was done for this course, but I do like the idea of letting the players decide where to throw the roller as long as some of the throws are from the tee.

At our annual Moir Mystery event where rollers are sometimes required, the player must declare they are attempting a roller. The group judges whether the disc went more than half of its distance in "roller orientation" meaning the disc flew/rolled closer to vertical angle than horizontal. It's not that hard to judge, even on intentional cut rollers.

When I played Shawshank in Texas, the owner gave me a roller lesson on throwing rollers with putters, including throwing intentional cut rollers on wooded doglegs. If a player wanted to throw one of these, I would want that to be a valid roller no matter the percentage of the throw's total distance the disc traveled on the ground before it hit a tree. But, that is just a personal preference.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Any places on the course where a sky roller might land blind from the tee?

Maybe on one of the holes, but I could play the tournament from the red tees to alleviate that possibility.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If you want to broaden the perspective on rollers based on the concept of "disc flying more vertical than horizontal", it would allow grenades that don't roll, and extreme height vertical backhand shots intended to get over foliage and not roll much when hitting ground. Those types of vertical shots were allowed as "rollers" at our events.

 

[BillFleming]

My intention with the it-is-a-roller-if-it-rolls rule was to take away as much subjectivity and potential conflict as possible. I too have unsuccessfully attempted to throw a roller before. Why wasn't it a roller? Because it didn't roll. An "accidental roller" is a roller. Why? Because it rolls. Defining a roller as a disc that rolls makes the rule easy to enforce and requires virtually no interpretation or search into any player's intent.

I get the desire to not let players benefit from a lucky rollaway or a spike hyzer that kicks up and rolls when the player wasn't even trying to throw a roller. But the flip side is then to add an additional stroke to a player who intends to throw a roller but just throws a bad shot. To put it in other terminology, I see no difference in punishing a player who accidentally fails to throw a roller and rewarding a player who accidentally succeeds in throwing one. The net effect is a one throw swing either way. And you have to penalize the thrower who attempts but fails to throw a roller or anyone could just declare that they are attempting a roller and throw "normally."

Regarding the bolded part....I see it this way:
Only declared rollers count as rollers. This solves the issues of unintended rollaways counting.
A declared roller MUST roll and the roll must be on the disc's edge for at least three feet. If it rolls, the throw isn't counted. If it doesn't roll, the throw is counted (and that is the penalty....the throw counts and it isn't a roller).
((Three feet should be an easy enough distance to determine from any distance)).

 

[Countchunkula]

Regarding the bolded part....I see it this way:
Only declared rollers count as rollers. This solves the issues of unintended rollaways counting.
A declared roller MUST roll and the roll must be on the disc's edge for at least three feet. If it rolls, the throw isn't counted. If it doesn't roll, the throw is counted (and that is the penalty....the throw counts and it isn't a roller).
((Three feet should be an easy enough distance to determine from any distance)).

Should be is the key. All it would take is one difficult individual to throw a card into chaos. "No way that rolled three feet!" When it clearly rolled 10'+.

You had guys who refused to keep score, not too hard to foresee one on those knuckleheads arguing about something like this.