Rule question: OB or missed mando

[jdawgl]

A player's throw missed the mandatory and landed OB. I seem to be missing a rule to determine whether to play the throw as a missed mando or OB. Link to hole in question

A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule shall be marked and/or penalized in accordance with the rule that results in the most penalty throws, or, among rules that call for an equal penalty, the rule that was first violated.

A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area.

A disc has passed the mandatory once it establishes a position beyond the mandatory line.

According to the rules above, the throw missed the mando and went OB at the same time by definition of a disc's 'position'. Both rules incur a 1 stroke penalty. Does the option of relief go to the player's preference?

 

[bradharris]

Your first quoted line covers it. The penalty is the same for both, so the first is what applies. The mando was missed before the disc came to rest out of bounds. Take a one throw penalty and proceed to the provisional drop zone.

 

[jdawgl]

The mando was missed before the disc came to rest out of bounds.

That's how I first saw the situation. Then I looked at definitions and this stuck out -- passed the mandatory once it establishes a position.

A disc's position is the location of the disc after it has been thrown and has initially come to rest.

So the disc has to come to rest before it is considered a missed mando :?? I know I am making a mountain out of a molehill. I can't come up with a convincing answer which coincides with the rule book.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If the disc flew over OB before missing the mando (right side of mando tree in picture), then the ruling is OB not missed mando. I argued with the RC on this one that until a disc comes to rest, it cannot be OB. But they have ruled that the OB occurred first. What confuses it further is if the disc went around the outside of the mando tree, hit the bank inbounds and kicked back to the right into OB, the missed mando would prevail.

 

[jeverett]

Your first quoted line covers it. The penalty is the same for both, so the first is what applies. The mando was missed before the disc came to rest out of bounds. Take a one throw penalty and proceed to the provisional drop zone.

But the full penalty may not be the same for both. A player who goes OB has the option to either rethrow from their previous lie or play from where their disc crossed OB. A player who misses a mando has the option to play from a drop zone (only if one is designated) or rethrow from their previous lie.

 

[jeverett]

If the disc flew over OB before missing the mando (right side of mando tree in picture), then the ruling is OB not missed mando. I argued with the RC on this one that until a disc comes to rest, it cannot be OB. But they have ruled that the OB occurred first. What confuses it further is if the disc went around the outside of the mando tree, hit the bank inbounds and kicked back to the right into OB, the missed mando would prevail.

I agree.. I don't understand how a disc still in the air can be ruled OB. What if the disc crosses an OB line (out), crosses it again (in), misses a mando, and finally crosses the OB line a third time?!

 

[jdawgl]

If the disc flew over OB before missing the mando (right side of mando tree in picture), then the ruling is OB not missed mando. I argued with the RC on this one that until a disc comes to rest, it cannot be OB.

Just wondering, would you add a rule to remedy the situation? Better yet, what would be your ruling without the RC's opinion?

 

[Cgkdisc]

jeverett -That would be a missed mando. BTW, I talked with Harold on the RC and he agrees they muffed it by changing the old rule where missed mando took precedence regardless of what else happened which was simpler to make calls. The OP example could be "fixed" if they said any shot OB or missed mando (before passing the good side) would go to the drop zone.

 

[joecoin]

I agree.. I don't understand how a disc still in the air can be ruled OB. What if the disc crosses an OB line (out), crosses it again (in), misses a mando, and finally crosses the OB line a third time?!

I don't know a whole lot about it, but I would believe that the air is never OB.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The "air" is sort of OB if the disc lands in a branch suspended over OB.

 

[DavidSauls]

The "air" is sort of OB if the disc lands in a branch suspended over OB.

And that we mark the lie after O.B. from where the disc was last inbounds---usually in the air---so the rest of the flight, it was presumably O.B. while still in the air.

 

[dreadlock86]

so in the OP's case:

if the disc landed in bounds and then rolled out, the call is missed mando
if the disc landed OB and never came back in bounds during flight, the call is OB

is that correct?

 

[dreadlock86]

also, what if nobody saw it? do you assume that it never came back in bounds since nobody actually saw it in bounds?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Yes to both posts.

 

[dreadlock86]

thanks!

 

[JoakimBL]

and yet another example of the RC not paying attention last time they changed the rules.

 

[bombmk]

I know I am making a mountain out of a molehill. I can't come up with a convincing answer which coincides with the rule book.

You are not making a mountain out of a molehill. It is a very reasonable question and exactly what this forum should be about (apart from the more clear cut rulings)

The rulebook should take care of this a question. But it does indeed not.

I tried writing out a short sentence that could take care of it - but honestly the mandatory definitions make it a little complicated if it has to be precise and encompassing at the same time.

 

[joecoin]

The "air" is sort of OB if the disc lands in a branch suspended over OB.

That's like sort of being pregnant.

The branch is the resting place, not the air. I suppose if a disc hovered in the air over OB for a set amount of time it could be considered at rest and therefore OB. I'd like to see that.

Why did you put the word 'air' in quotes?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Because it's not totally "air" when the disc is in a branch. I was just indicating that your disc can be OB and not on the ground (in the "air") without using the 2m rule.