Rules enforcement in a 2 player play-off

[stratedge]

I've long felt there seems to be a hole in the competition manual; at no point does it say that a tournament official has to be present for a play-off, does it? Without which, how would one player ever call a penalty such as a foot fault on another player?

It seems like common sense they would attend, but... I've been in 3 play-offs in my tournament career, and in none of those tournaments did a tournament official accompany us, just spectators (all were MA1 and 5+ years back when everyone at the tournies knew each other). Fortunately, it was never an issue, but it is an odd feeling when it's just 2 of you on the "card" and so much tension. It's once you're out there on the first hole that you think "hrm, maybe there should be someone else here just in case" but you always hope the spectators will keep people honest.

I actually did have an incident once though that epitomized this issue during a for-fun 3 disc challenge event. I am MPO now and I wound up in a play-off with an Am player I didn't really know. It was only the 2 of us present with a few people watching from behind the first tee. I went OB on my drive and I think he assumed I'd take a 4 and didn't throw a great shot, wound up laying up for the 3. I sank my putt from about 60 to push the hole, and after taking about 15+ seconds to mark my lie and line up the putt. After I sank it, the Am says I putted from the wrong spot, I needed to be further away. I told him he needed to bring that up when I marked my lie, before I made the putt, and he just sort of took his discs and walked away. I laughed it off (the prize here was like, 1 additional disc) and went back, but when the event organizer asked what happened I said "I guess he forfeits, he just quit" but the guy was telling them he won. Long story short I was eventually guilted into "letting the Am have it" but I really didn't like it, on principle... I was already planning to give the disc away in front of him if I got it. Anyway... it opened my eyes to the fact that as disc golf grows, and there's less social accountability between players, the fine details of rules enforcement might be more important to refine.

 

[krupicka]

CM1.06.F "To promote fairness, groups shall not consist of fewer than three players, except under extenuating circumstances, as deemed necessary by the Tournament Director. In cases where fewer than three players are required to play together, a designated tournament official must accompany the group and may play as long as that does not interfere with the competing players."

 

[ru4por]

As a club, we always send out a tournament official to walk with groups of two, in playoffs. As a player, I always go out of my way to validate an OB mark/lie with my cardmates. "Hey guys, does this mark seem right?"

 

[DavidSauls]

I've seen a 3rd (eliminated) player sent along with a playoff, as an arbiter. I guess that person was thought of as a deputized official, for that particular duty, though not formally.

 

[BillFleming]

If a player walked off from a playoff, they would be forfeiting it. If the TD 'coerced' me to give up the prize, I'd report that TD to the PDGA.

I believe in fairness, but if another player choses to ignore the rules (not saying something at the right time, walking away from the playoff/round, and then claiming a win) ... I expect the TD to stand up to it and enforce the rules. And, yes, the TD or their representative should have been there at the time.

 

[Dcinmd]

If a player walked off from a playoff, they would be forfeiting it. If the TD 'coerced' me to give up the prize, I'd report that TD to the PDGA.

Was this even a PDGA event? A MPO vs AM1 sounds more like a club event than a PDGA one.

Also I have never seen a MPO in PDGA event playing for plastic.

 

[BillFleming]

Was this even a PDGA event? A MPO vs AM1 sounds more like a club event than a PDGA one.

Also I have never seen a MPO in PDGA event playing for plastic.

I don't know....but if it isn't a sanctioned tournament, then the PDGA rules can't be enforced - so there's no point to the OP's question. I agree that I've never heard of a playoff between a pro and an am unless both are playing the same "division" and then it doesn't matter if one is pro and one is am.

If it is sanctioned....the TD should have been reported.
If it isn't sanctioned...then the rules are whatever the TD wants them to be.

Sounds like the whiner (the am player) won by complaining the loudest.

 

[Steve West]

...Without which, how would one player ever call a penalty such as a foot fault on another player?...

One player sees it and calls it, and the other confirms it. That's how it works no matter how many are in the group.

The thrower can and should call or confirm violations by the thrower.

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

**not really relevant to the specific question, but to the scenario presented..

Is there a rule (I'm not finding it, I thought it was a thing) that an established new lie must be verified by another player(s)? I know the group must verify inbounds rulings (806.02 H) but what about establishing a lie after OB (or disc not on the playing surface, or relief), who determines the last point in bounds? Only the thrower? Group consensus? What if I'm fairly certain that my roller went backwards 20 feet after crossing ob, or whatever?

I see it all the time on coverage, and I have done it myself (mostly because I thought it was a rule I suppose), player goes ob, does heel to toe 3 times (this is dumb, I always guestimate myself), places mini, looks up at other players and says "good?" other players nod, and play continues.

 

[krupicka]

**not really relevant to the specific question, but to the scenario presented..

Is there a rule (I'm not finding it, I thought it was a thing) that an established new lie must be verified by another player(s)? I know the group must verify inbounds rulings (806.02 H) but what about establishing a lie after OB (or disc not on the playing surface, or relief), who determines the last point in bounds? Only the thrower? Group consensus? What if I'm fairly certain that my roller went backwards 20 feet after crossing ob, or whatever?

I see it all the time on coverage, and I have done it myself (mostly because I thought it was a rule I suppose), player goes ob, does heel to toe 3 times (this is dumb, I always guestimate myself), places mini, looks up at other players and says "good?" other players nod, and play continues.

It is best to get others on your card to help determine the new lie. If you don't, it is possible for them to call a misplay if they believe you played from an incorrect lie.

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

Ok. [Devils Advocate] How can they call a misplay? I *know* (think) my disc went OB right where I took my meter in bounds from, now you're trying to tell me that it was 50 feet back there? Your word against mine? (obviously this would have been easier if we came to an agreement before I threw, but its not in the rules so I didn't even consider that). Other side of the coin, you're winning, I saw you go OB, I watch you mark your lie 20' ahead of where I know it went out and watch you putt, then call you for misplay. Or, I didn't see it go OB, but I see a loophole here...

(Ok, I don't argue/debate much on the internet or in real life, I'm already bored with it, thanks for listening)

 

[Steve West]

Ok. [Devils Advocate] How can they call a misplay? I *know* (think) my disc went OB right where I took my meter in bounds from, now you're trying to tell me that it was 50 feet back there? Your word against mine? (obviously this would have been easier if we came to an agreement before I threw, but its not in the rules so I didn't even consider that). Other side of the coin, you're winning, I saw you go OB, I watch you mark your lie 20' ahead of where I know it went out and watch you putt, then call you for misplay. Or, I didn't see it go OB, but I see a loophole here...

(Ok, I don't argue/debate much on the internet or in real life, I'm already bored with it, thanks for listening)

Are you looking for the rule that says you can't cheat?

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

Are you looking for the rule that says you can't cheat?

*Shrugs* maybe. krupicka said the card might call a misplay on me after I have thrown my shot. I'm playing against John Doe (maybe he's a known cheater, maybe not), I take my meter relief, I throw my shot. John claims I played from the wrong spot, and calls me for a misplay. Maybe he's cheating on purpose, maybe he really believes that I was 30 feet farther back, sure he should have let me know that he thought I was wrong before I threw, but is there anything saying that he *has* to? I guess the same could be said if John watches me line up a shot behind the wrong disc.. I dunno, sorry for derailing the thread, I was just looking for the rule that says I should check with the other players about where the lie is relocated to.

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

^which is what essentially happened in the OP - player made his putt, then the other player declared his own victory because of misplay.

 

[krupicka]

*Shrugs* maybe. krupicka said the card might call a misplay on me after I have thrown my shot. I'm playing against John Doe (maybe he's a known cheater, maybe not), I take my meter relief, I throw my shot. John claims I played from the wrong spot, and calls me for a misplay. Maybe he's cheating on purpose, maybe he really believes that I was 30 feet farther back, sure he should have let me know that he thought I was wrong before I threw, but is there anything saying that he *has* to? I guess the same could be said if John watches me line up a shot behind the wrong disc.. I dunno, sorry for derailing the thread, I was just looking for the rule that says I should check with the other players about where the lie is relocated to.

The misplay call would need to be seconded by another player in the group. We've had questions to the RC where a player went OB, marked his lie, and while the group was discussing whether or not that was the correct lie (player was aware of this), the player hurried up and threw his putt. As the player walks to the next tee, he finds his disc a distance much further away where the lie he threw from could not possibly be correct. That's a misplay.

 

[Dcinmd]

I don't know....but if it isn't a sanctioned tournament, then the PDGA rules can't be enforced - so there's no point to the OP's question. I agree that I've never heard of a playoff between a pro and an am unless both are playing the same "division" and then it doesn't matter if one is pro and one is am.

If it is sanctioned....the TD should have been reported.
If it isn't sanctioned...then the rules are whatever the TD wants them to be.

Sounds like the whiner (the am player) won by complaining the loudest.

Also I have not heard of a 3-disc challenge in a PDGA event.

 

[stratedge]

sure he should have let me know that he thought I was wrong before I threw, but is there anything saying that he *has* to?

I think that the key here is that agreement to the lie is implied by not explicitly disagreeing, provided you have a fair chance to do so. There's already a rule stating that everyone on the card has an obligation to observe every opponents throw for fair application of the rules. This was key in my scenario; my opponent watched me place my lie and line up my putt for a good 15 seconds, from ~5m away, only complaining once I made it. Implicitly agreeing to the new lie after players go OB is happing constantly, every day, during tournament rounds all over the world.

I do believe however that it would be great if the PDGA could explicitly cover this in the rules. Not that the players should agree to the lie, but instead that by not disagreeing with it while being present, attentive, and having the opportunity to do so... you are agreeing. I don't know if 'entrapment' is happening out there (intentionally watching the player throw from a bad lie and then calling it -- I've never seen it), but as the sport grows, probably best to nip it in the bud anyway.

 

[araytx]

I think that the key here is that agreement to the lie is implied by not explicitly disagreeing, provided you have a fair chance to do so. There's already a rule stating that everyone on the card has an obligation to observe every opponents throw for fair application of the rules. This was key in my scenario; my opponent watched me place my lie and line up my putt for a good 15 seconds, from ~5m away, only complaining once I made it. Implicitly agreeing to the new lie after players go OB is happing constantly, every day, during tournament rounds all over the world.

I do believe however that it would be great if the PDGA could explicitly cover this in the rules. Not that the players should agree to the lie, but instead that by not disagreeing with it while being present, attentive, and having the opportunity to do so... you are agreeing. I don't know if 'entrapment' is happening out there (intentionally watching the player throw from a bad lie and then calling it -- I've never seen it), but as the sport grows, probably best to nip it in the bud anyway.

Strat:

What people are trying to tell you is that you're doing (in your own definition) exactly what you're complaining about -- making a (loop)hole in the rules. You say your cardmate(s) implicitly agreed to the lie by "not disagreeing" "while attentive" and even one place you mention "for 15 seconds". SO then under your scenario/rules interpretation, the question would become "how long is long enough?" Do I "implicitly agree" after 14 seconds? What about 12? What about 7? and so on. The more effective method, and I do this ANYTIME I go OB or have to mark for relief, is to say to one the closest members of the group, "Is this a fair mark?" THEN, if they say nothing you have something to back it up. But to just mark your lie then throw before it was explicitly confirmed or not doesn't hold the same amount of weight, imho. This option CERTAINLY nips any attempt at entrapment in the bud.