Saint/Avenger/Surge

[Uncle Dougie]

Oh come on wanderer. I throw both annys ways with a lot of discs, I would venture to say most people do, and both styles are equally effective. A lot of people with throw a brand new Buzzz or beat up TB types of discs anhyzer so that they don't risk rolling into nasty situations if they release it a little too fast, too low, too steep etc. It's easy to screw up and a bigger risk than it flatting out too early and not going far enough right in many situations. Many players who can bomb traditionally use a beat up wraith type disc to hyzer-flip-anhyzer all the way just like a brand new roadrunner that goes farther. The wraith is obviously very famous for being an excellent anhyzer and roller disc when seasoned. Paul McBeth uses a 165 star destroyer for his longest anhyzers and rollers. You are the one stubbornly refusing reality.

I see this more often than not. Beat star wraiths on huge anny lines to the ground. I guess what you could say is, a pro's choice more than anything will be a beat stable disc and a newer less experienced player will probably use the most advertised understable disc on the market. I see this all of the time. In the end, it's a matter of preference.

 

[Ty_Ty]

I have 161 Z avenger that is a wonderful anhyzer disc. Its by far the longest avenger I have. Throw it flat and it will hold a turn 90% of the flight then a soft fade at the end. Have gotten over 400ft. Thrown anhyzer and it will hold the trun the whole way. Great comp to my ESP Avenger

 

[Wanderer]

I see this more often than not. Beat star wraiths on huge anny lines to the ground. I guess what you could say is, a pro's choice more than anything will be a beat stable disc and a newer less experienced player will probably use the most advertised understable disc on the market. I see this all of the time. In the end, it's a matter of preference.

Wasn't it Christian Sandstrom who called the Roadrunner the best disc ever made?

 

[blind pilot]

Wasn't it Christian Sandstrom who called the Roadrunner the best disc ever made?

The continued obstinance on this is interesting.

 

[Wanderer]

The continued obstinance on this is interesting.

LOL, touche. Although you're hanging in there pretty stubbornly yourself.

But, hey, it's discussion, ideas getting tossed around, preconceptions being challenged, some new perspective.

 

[blind pilot]

LOL, touche. Although you're hanging in there pretty stubbornly yourself.

But, hey, it's discussion, ideas getting tossed around, preconceptions being challenged, some new perspective.

I've been called stubborn a time or two. No offense just clownin a little.

 

[Wanderer]

I've been called stubborn a time or two. No offense just clownin a little.

No worries...I thought it was a great comeback.

 

[Hoss22]

It's getting to the point...as it usually does, of beating in a disc to hold the lines as apposed to getting new plastic that will fly that way out of the box. It's weird I know, but my beat z avenger 174g will hold a smooth smooth anny the entire way when thrown flat, and i only have 350-375ft distance. I like what was said earlier about looking at the rest of my bag...I was so focused on these three discs, when I should have been looking at another one. My flow. Can get max distance, can be understable/overstable based on plastic, wear, and weoght, and can take over that surge part of my bag. The saint and avenger could in essance stay in the bag, removing the surge, and using the flow in its place....but then again, my flow has way more glide imo than my surge......I'm definately overthinking this now. Lol

 

[Tiny]

It's getting to the point...as it usually does, of beating in a disc to hold the lines as apposed to getting new plastic that will fly that way out of the box. It's weird I know, but my beat z avenger 174g will hold a smooth smooth anny the entire way when thrown flat, and i only have 350-375ft distance. I like what was said earlier about looking at the rest of my bag...I was so focused on these three discs, when I should have been looking at another one. My flow. Can get max distance, can be understable/overstable based on plastic, wear, and weoght, and can take over that surge part of my bag. The saint and avenger could in essance stay in the bag, removing the surge, and using the flow in its place....but then again, my flow has way more glide imo than my surge......I'm definately overthinking this now. Lol

At 375ft max, what do you use your force for? Your predator will do similar lines with your current arm speed.

 

[Hoss22]

At 375ft max, what do you use your force for? Your predator will do similar lines with your current arm speed.

I use my force for 375' and pred for big 330' spike shots to 350' hyzer and flex shots. Pred is more utility and force big drives in the wind.

 

[Wanderer]

It's getting to the point...as it usually does, of beating in a disc to hold the lines as apposed to getting new plastic that will fly that way out of the box. It's weird I know, but my beat z avenger 174g will hold a smooth smooth anny the entire way when thrown flat, and i only have 350-375ft distance. I like what was said earlier about looking at the rest of my bag...I was so focused on these three discs, when I should have been looking at another one. My flow. Can get max distance, can be understable/overstable based on plastic, wear, and weoght, and can take over that surge part of my bag. The saint and avenger could in essance stay in the bag, removing the surge, and using the flow in its place....but then again, my flow has way more glide imo than my surge......I'm definately overthinking this now. Lol

How many Flows do you have that you're basing its stability on "plastic, wear, and weight?" I've HAD a few, and they can be all over the map in terms of consistency in the mold. For this reason, I think the Surge is a safer bet.

You do seem to have a lot of overlap in the driver category anyway, especially where you have multiples of most of your discs in what I can only assume are different stages of wear. This can get pretty convoluted. I kind of go against the grain in that I don't have multiples of a disc with different levels of wear, but instead have specific discs for specific uses. The fact that all my plastic is now either champion, opto, elite z, or vip makes it basically impossible to try and carry one mold of anything in different stages of wear.

Anyway, it might be best to decide on some and eliminate others, at least for now. Not easy, but it will help simplify things and aid in consistency.

The River is a magical disc, but don't count on it for control. Any wind and any River becomes squirrelly. That's where your Saint can come in handy....control. The Avenger is an old tech driver with what I consider a funky rim. And you don't really need Avengers if you have Predators. The Force requires a lot of power to fly right and is almost certainly too much disc for you at 350 ft distance. Stability-wise, there is major overlap for you with the Predator, Avenger, Surge, Flow, and Force...all either overstable or power hungry drivers.

And I still find it curious that at 350 ft of power, you're easily able to anny your Avenger and Surge all the way to the ground. How far out is that happening? And is your right shoulder winding up much lower than your left at follow-through? A beginner, at relatively low power, throwing all power hungry overstable drivers is a recipe for OAT. Don't do it! Get at least one neutral-understable driver in your bag and learn to throw it in order to make sure you're using proper form. And the River ain't no driver. It's an oversized fairway driver...just to make sure a whole new line of dispute doesn't develop over that one.

You need to simplify things and NOT try and throw all kinds of drives with one kind of driver(i.e overstable). It doesn't matter how beat up they may be, that is all wrong.

 

[Wanderer]

It's getting to the point...as it usually does, of beating in a disc to hold the lines as apposed to getting new plastic that will fly that way out of the box. It's weird I know, but my beat z avenger 174g will hold a smooth smooth anny the entire way when thrown flat, and i only have 350-375ft distance. I like what was said earlier about looking at the rest of my bag...I was so focused on these three discs, when I should have been looking at another one. My flow. Can get max distance, can be understable/overstable based on plastic, wear, and weoght, and can take over that surge part of my bag. The saint and avenger could in essance stay in the bag, removing the surge, and using the flow in its place....but then again, my flow has way more glide imo than my surge......I'm definately overthinking this now. Lol

Also, it doesn't make sense that at 350 ft of power your 174g Z Avenger is flying like a Roadrunner for you. Elite Z is not only the most overstable of Avengers, it also takes forever to "beat in". So I'm curious as to how your Z Avenger is beat to all hell.

I think it's a mistake to go only with high speed and/or overstable drivers at 350 ft of power. Anhyzers my arse!

Keep one, probably the Z Avenger for hyzer drives and headwind duty.

 

[5QU166Y]

Also, it doesn't make sense that at 350 ft of power your 174g Z Avenger is flying like a Roadrunner for you. Elite Z is not only the most overstable of Avengers, it also takes forever to "beat in". So I'm curious as to how your Z Avenger is beat to all hell.

I think it's a mistake to go only with high speed and/or overstable drivers at 350 ft of power. Anhyzers my arse!

Keep one, probably the Z Avenger for hyzer drives and headwind duty.

Judging by this statement, I'd say you have never really thrown Avengers. Avengers aren't as overstable as Discraft or Inbounds would have you believe. They certainly aren't overstable enough for headwinds, either. It only took 2 rounds with my Z Avenger for it to start turning on a flat release.

Although I'm hesitant to believe that the Z Avenger will hold an anny line easily all the way to the ground, it's certainly possible. I'm going to give the OP the benefit of the doubt on this one and believe him.

Also, if the Flow is inconsistent, that could be a good thing. If he finds enough Flows that are different from one another, it will be much easier for him to layer them and cover more shots.

 

[JoshEpoo]

Judging by this statement, I'd say you have never really thrown Avengers. Avengers aren't as overstable as Discraft or Inbounds would have you believe. They certainly aren't overstable enough for headwinds, either. It only took 2 rounds with my Z Avenger for it to start turning on a flat release.

Although I'm hesitant to believe that the Z Avenger will hold an anny line easily all the way to the ground, it's certainly possible. I'm going to give the OP the benefit of the doubt on this one and believe him.

There is variation in Z Avengers, but rest assured, there are a lot of beefy Avengers out there. Many of the Z AvengeRs were nearly Predators. Yours could be a dud, or from a more neutral run, or you could be torquing it funny. In any event, it takes years of severe punishment before they get anywhere near a Roadrunner.

The OP is definitely over thinking though. Most players only frequent a small handful of courses, and tailor their bags to suit those courses. Unless you're competing on a wide variety of courses you really don't need a bag that covers ALL possible situations, especially those on the upper end of your power range. There is potentially a bunch of overlap with the Flow/Surge/Saint/River/beat Avenger but if that's what you're into, carry on!

 

[Wanderer]

Judging by this statement, I'd say you have never really thrown Avengers. Avengers aren't as overstable as Discraft or Inbounds would have you believe. They certainly aren't overstable enough for headwinds, either. It only took 2 rounds with my Z Avenger for it to start turning on a flat release.

Although I'm hesitant to believe that the Z Avenger will hold an anny line easily all the way to the ground, it's certainly possible. I'm going to give the OP the benefit of the doubt on this one and believe him.

Also, if the Flow is inconsistent, that could be a good thing. If he finds enough Flows that are different from one another, it will be much easier for him to layer them and cover more shots.

I've owned and thrown the Avenger plenty. And they're stable enough for all but the strongest headwind, absolutely. Oh, and Joe's Flight Chart has the Avenger at -0.5, 3.5. If there are freak less stable Z Avengers out there, so be it.

So, now you want him to add a bunch of different Flows to his bag too? On top of multiples of the Force, Surge, Avenger, and Predator? Yikes!

 

[Wanderer]

There is variation in Z Avengers, but rest assured, there are a lot of beefy Avengers out there. Many of the Z AvengeRs were nearly Predators. Yours could be a dud, or from a more neutral run, or you could be torquing it funny. In any event, it takes years of severe punishment before they get anywhere near a Roadrunner.

The OP is definitely over thinking though. Most players only frequent a small handful of courses, and tailor their bags to suit those courses. Unless you're competing on a wide variety of courses you really don't need a bag that covers ALL possible situations, especially those on the upper end of your power range. There is potentially a bunch of overlap with the Flow/Surge/Saint/River/beat Avenger but if that's what you're into, carry on!

I think it's entirely possible the OP actually has an Avenger SS that's either mis-stamped or has lost most of its stamp, if it's as beat to hell as he says. He may have inherited it, who knows? That would explain a lot. Either that or these guys are forcing over their heavy Z Avengers bigtime in order to get them to fly as understable as they claim. Got OAT?

 

[Hoss22]

I think it's entirely possible the OP actually has an Avenger SS that's either mis-stamped or has lost most of its stamp, if it's as beat to hell as he says. He may have inherited it, who knows? That would explain a lot. Either that or these guys are forcing over their heavy Z Avengers bigtime in order to get them to fly as understable as they claim. Got OAT?

It's not an a-ss. Completely different rim on the two. It's not my first time on the course. Lol. Maybe the avenger is a freak, I don't know, but its an old stamp z that has had many years of many rounds on it. I'm very particular about how I throw and keeping oat as much out of the equation as possible. Keep the disc on a flat line and release, it flies more like a 10/5/-2/2. Put that back wing up a bit and throw it on that anny line and it turns into a 10/5/-3/1. But it will still hold a hyzer line. It's a shot shaper of sorts. And I know its not a big difference, but my distance drives are at 375', not 350'...I'm getting my saint about 350' and my flow/force to 375'.

 

[New013]

Who wants a super pearly Z Avenger?

 

[Tiny]

I'm getting my saint about 350' and my flow/force to 375'.

If this is the case, couldn't someone make the argument that you don't really need to stretch it out 25 more feet, and you could possibly just rock the saints and avenger as drivers? I guess the argument Control Versus Distance is at large right now.

 

[Wanderer]

It's not an a-ss. Completely different rim on the two. It's not my first time on the course. Lol. Maybe the avenger is a freak, I don't know, but its an old stamp z that has had many years of many rounds on it. I'm very particular about how I throw and keeping oat as much out of the equation as possible. Keep the disc on a flat line and release, it flies more like a 10/5/-2/2. Put that back wing up a bit and throw it on that anny line and it turns into a 10/5/-3/1. But it will still hold a hyzer line. It's a shot shaper of sorts. And I know its not a big difference, but my distance drives are at 375', not 350'...I'm getting my saint about 350' and my flow/force to 375'.

Okay, some of my assumptions were wrong then. It sounds like a keeper if it's that versatile. Anyway, good luck in your final disc selection, and sorry if I came across too critical. It's just opinion and discussion after all.