Shortening my X step

[Diengi]

I'm thinking of focusing on really shortening my X step i.e. the step before my plant / brace leg.

The reason: having filmed my backhand, the timing of my reachout & plant step is clearly out.

My arm extends well before my plant foot hits the ground, and the X step foot tends to over rotate so it's pointing backwards a bit. My extended arm & hand then go up by my back shoulder as I'm planting my front foot, and dip into the power pocket. And sure enough, my release tends to be somewhat nose up.

Some of the youtube form gurus advocate a minimal X step to avoid all this happening, to improve timing and get a flat reachout and release.

Anyway: have any of you gone through this process? Did it help to shorten your X step? If so, any tips to help embed it?

Thanks!

 

[Brychanus]

In general form review is better since the answer to this is a bit contextual. But here's one way I think about it now:

One of the deeper problems for developing players is that they tend to lean away and trap their mass behind their x-step rather than letting it flow slightly ahead of it like you would when walking or running. As a result, they end up decelerating rather than accelerating into the plant, leaving a big source of "free power" on the table (gravity). Anecdotally, this problem usually traps people closer to 300' of distance. So I think gurus & coaches advise a shorter x-step as an aid to get people used to getting their mass flowing forward and dropping into the plant.

I tend to think there's a relationship between x-step length and form & what's available to different body types if maximum power is your concern.

Long & limber players like Eagle or Simon can stretch out horizontal and tend to have larger looking x-steps.

Stouter players like Gurthie, Sidewinder, Tattar tend to get more vertical and have narrower looking x-steps. You can think of this as using a bigger hop to make up for the fact that they have perhaps less leverage & clearance in their legs and hips:

In general you can start by working from more narrow and vertical regardless of body type, which will tend to use a shorter x-step. Some players like Simon went through a vertical phase before getting more horizontal. Notice that his x-step is somewhat shorter when he was in a vertical style.

 

[drk_evns]

One of the deeper problems for developing players is that they tend to lean away and trap their mass behind their x-step rather than letting it flow slightly ahead of it like you would when walking or running.

As I've developed form, this was the most difficult thing to master. At least for me, the temptation to "tip"—in a misguided effort to add more effort—is something I still have to keep an eye on.

I'm at the point in my form where I'm bringing more and more speed and momentum into my x-step while making sure I'm managing that power efficiently. Each time I notch up the power I tend to fall back into tipping and an early backswing until I consciously dial it in. Eventually everything aligns and you get a glimpse of your swing's potential. That tends to happen more and more often until you're doing it without thinking. Then you can continue to adjust further

_

I have the luxury of knowing my problem, and I have some tools I use when I run into this issue.

1. Thinking about keeping your head over your front leg as you do your run up can help do this:

letting it flow slightly ahead of it like you would when walking or running.

...you want to make sure your head isn't being whipped back and forth at the top of your spine. That excessive head movement is a good indicator you're tipping your spine as opposed to shifting everything "under" your head.

2. Keeping your eyes on the target until they're forced away by your backswing: This helps with number 1 without thinking much about it. This is the "swingthought" I use when actually competing. It's really thinking about the target and nothing else, but when you have this sole focus, it makes tilting forward in dynamic balance much more natural—like walking or running.

This isn't something that's necessary, but definitely helps if you're struggling. A lot of pros do this if you watch closely, but AB for example turns his head away actively before his shoulder on lots of powerful drives.

_


I think some people struggle with this feeling because being in dynamic balance means you're not in a more comfortable "static" balance. You're risking a faceplant with your balance just like you are when you make a hard turn skiing. If you do it right, it's a very symmetrical and effortless motion, but if there's a mishap or you hit a patch of ice, although relatively unlikely, it could send you head over heels. I wonder there's some subconscious apprehension in some people that makes moving athletically more difficult—especially in a sport like disc golf where many people are picking it up later in life without any other experience with a sport that swings in the opposite direction like we do.

It's also just about not muscling through the swing as we all know. Some bodies are more used to creating power with muscles, and so naturally we try to exert our muscles in the throw—but most of us here are aware that those muscles pale in comparison to the forces we can generate through efficient mechanics.

 

[blayed]

Anecdotally I have had good success with shortening my x step. One thing that helped me signifcantly wasnt just trying to make the step smaller, but to have a sort of 1,2 - 3 rhythm to the cross step. Like a right left shuffle - pause - plant.

in true disc golf form progress fashion though now instead of tipping BACK I sometimes tip forward. But I think thats where postural stuff and "riding the bull" come into play.

 

[Diengi]

Thanks for your thoughtful responses so far. All very interesting and helpful.

My context (without wanting to make this like a form review post):
- 50 year old chap, 5'10", average levers.
- Started playing DG 2 years ago, although I threw frisbees quite a lot from age 10-30.
- I've played plenty of sports involving sideways stance, weight transfer, knees hips & shoulders e.g. cricket batting & bowling, field hockey, tennis, a bit of snowboarding.
- Form: to date I've been aiming for slowish, smooth, and tidy. Think Josh Overthrow's 'simple backhand setup' video, sped up a fraction. So, I think I'm not jerky, but I lack some explosiveness through the power pocket to the hit.
- 'Work on your short game and putting', yes yes I know, but I wouldn't mind a bit more distance. I'm currently plateaued around 270-280ft on flat ground on a still day. I'd like to get closer to 350 before age really starts to bite...

So, the shorter X step experiment is to see if it helps with timing. Per your reply Brychanus it might well be suitable as I'm not a long-limbed thing. I'm also working on properly bracing my plant leg and getting the heel pivot really embedded. It's all to try to reduce energy and momentum leaking out, and transferring as much as possible into the disc.


(There's probably a zillion other form things I should work on, but I thought I'd pick just one for my maiden post on DGCR!)

 

[Sheep]

There are 2 reasons I can see having a really big x-step.

You're timing is good and you're able to manage your center of balance and timing while moving fast at the plant.
This would be an acceptable reason as we see with big golfers out there who throw far. They have the timing and mechanics to have to take a big step because its in time with their momentum.

The second reason to take a big x-step is because you're moving faster than you're actually capable of maintaining and you're trying to catch your balance because you're out of time and you're out of sync with your body.
This is the bad reason.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks for your thoughtful responses so far. All very interesting and helpful.

My context (without wanting to make this like a form review post):
- 50 year old chap, 5'10", average levers.
- Started playing DG 2 years ago, although I threw frisbees quite a lot from age 10-30.
- I've played plenty of sports involving sideways stance, weight transfer, knees hips & shoulders e.g. cricket batting & bowling, field hockey, tennis, a bit of snowboarding.
- Form: to date I've been aiming for slowish, smooth, and tidy. Think Josh Overthrow's 'simple backhand setup' video, sped up a fraction. So, I think I'm not jerky, but I lack some explosiveness through the power pocket to the hit.
- 'Work on your short game and putting', yes yes I know, but I wouldn't mind a bit more distance. I'm currently plateaued around 270-280ft on flat ground on a still day. I'd like to get closer to 350 before age really starts to bite...

So, the shorter X step experiment is to see if it helps with timing. Per your reply Brychanus it might well be suitable as I'm not a long-limbed thing. I'm also working on properly bracing my plant leg and getting the heel pivot really embedded. It's all to try to reduce energy and momentum leaking out, and transferring as much as possible into the disc.


(There's probably a zillion other form things I should work on, but I thought I'd pick just one for my maiden post on DGCR!)

YW, that's why I love it here -

I am younger than you (37 now) but had much less sports background and various physical issues in my lower body when I started here. IMO these are the best things you can do:

1. Post a form critique. You'd get good advice here. If you get advice elsewhere, IMO it's important to learn from a very good coach. I'm just old enough to be increasingly cranky about wasting my time, and time was already not on my side. At 50 you want to be learning the safest, most effective things possible. Your sports background will probably help to an extent.

2. Like pitching or batting, I think a high-level swing benefits from good strength & flexibility especially in the legs, hips, and through the core/oblique slings. I had none of those starting out. Changing my exercise routine to focus there has been great for DG and my overall health.

3. You might like the video & discussions in the 500' and Expectations threads. I made the Expectations one after the first time I acquired overuse injuries pushing for distance while learning mechanics. It happened a second time a month ago (I'm a compulsive guy). I've finally toned it down and listen to my body more. Depending on their background, some players can push more or less hard. I think it's also good to have a reasonable guess at where your ceiling might be to keep you on track while being safe - even if you always want to push for more than that.

4. I had some dance background and find that learning to move to rhythms with music helps a lot with timing. YMMV.

 

[Diengi]

YW, that's why I love it here -

I am younger than you (37 now) but had much less sports background and various physical issues in my lower body when I started here. IMO these are the best things you can do:

1. Post a form critique. You'd get good advice here. If you get advice elsewhere, IMO it's important to learn from a very good coach. I'm just old enough to be increasingly cranky about wasting my time, and time was already not on my side. At 50 you want to be learning the safest, most effective things possible. Your sports background will probably help to an extent.

2. Like pitching or batting, I think a high-level swing benefits from good strength & flexibility especially in the legs, hips, and through the core/oblique slings. I had none of those starting out. Changing my exercise routine to focus there has been great for DG and my overall health.

3. You might like the video & discussions in the 500' and Expectations threads. I made the Expectations one after the first time I acquired overuse injuries pushing for distance while learning mechanics. It happened a second time a month ago (I'm a compulsive guy). I've finally toned it down and listen to my body more. Depending on their background, some players can push more or less hard. I think it's also good to have a reasonable guess at where your ceiling might be to keep you on track while being safe - even if you always want to push for more than that.

4. I had some dance background and find that learning to move to rhythms with music helps a lot with timing. YMMV.

Thanks for all that
1: Posting for a form crit: I think I will. Learning a safe technique: absolutely, partly because I want to play this sport as long as I can. Winning a tournament MA80 division one day is one of my ambitions. I guess aiming to be Mr Smooth should help.
2: Yes. More time needed with kettlebells and planking.
3: Like it. Will delve into those.
4. Yes, I've often wondered what a typical dance teacher would make of it all. And I worked out musical snippets for my 4 step backhand (dum, dum, dedum = here comes the bride) and non-hopping forehand walkup (da, da da da swing = Blue Danube Waltz)