Should every hole be birdie-able?

[bucky926]

This is a question that I think disc golfers are divided on so I'm going to posit it here. On any given course, should every hole have a good chance for a birdie? A new course popped up in my area which I'll link to at the bottom so you get a better idea of what I'm talking about.

Basically some of these holes have 400+ foot par 3s through the woods. They have a distinct landng spot for the first shot which gives you an upshot of about 150-200 feet and then a chance for the par. Some of these holes don't seem birdie-able. Walking away with a par is tough enough as it is. I'm not saying the top pros couldn't get them in two, but the average to advanced player shoots for par. So the question is, should every hole have a birdie opportunity or should some holes be meant for tough pars and a large amount of bogeys.

In this question, I'm not talking about stupid threes that everyone can par. You know those holes where a good drive leaves you with an open 70 foot approach and a bad drive leaves you with an open 150 foot approach. Most people walk away with a 3 on such a hole. I'm talking about a par 3 that requires a really nice drive followed by a really nice upshot to just get the par.

Which do you prefer?

The course that sparked this discussion (looking at pro pars from an am perspective which I know screws things up a bit but go with me)
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=5461&mode=hi

 

[UnitedPuppySlayer]

Wasn't there already a huge discussion on this not too long ago?

 

[freakinwizzz]

i've played with people who think holes suck if its not ace-able..i think golf is made to par so there should be holes that are almost impossible to birdie

 

[Stetz1010]

I'm going to give you the short answer; No.

 

[Bonks]

Should a hole be easy enough for everyone to just step up to the tee and birdie? No. Should a hole be birdieable if you throw a great shot? Yes.

 

[KenTyburski]

I'm going to give you the short answer; No.

This. To touch on another thread's topic about golf being dead, remember that disc golf is akin to ball golf in structure and strategy, if not vastly different in equipment and course design. The US Open, generally deemed the hardest of the majors, often has most of the field over par. I would like to see more courses designed with the thought of, "three excellent shots make par," instead of everyone expecting that they should be able to make a bunch of birdies to make themselves feel good. Most current courses balance fun with ego trip, so that players with reasonable skills don't get left off the birdie train. But something like -40 shouldn't be a winning score in any kind of golf... ever. Of course, that's my opinion.

 

[General Scales]

No, every hole shouldn't be a birdie hole. Disc golfers suffer from what I call "under syndrome". If your not under par, your pissed off about it. In ball golf, you are stoked if you are shooting par on the course. That is one big difference (and possibly one that holds us back) between the two sports.

 

[Bonks]

No, every hole shouldn't be a birdie hole. Disc golfers suffer from what I call "under syndrome". If your not under par, your pissed off about it. In ball golf, you are stoked if you are shooting par on the course. That is one big difference (and possibly one that holds us back) between the two sports.

Why is this even a comparison? In ball golf if you hit good shots, you still have a shot at birdie. Most people don't hit good enough shots which leads to par golf or worse. I'm failing to see the harm in being rewarded for throwing a great shot with a birdie just like ball golf.

 

[DiscJunkie]

I'm all about variety.
Gimme some tough ones and some that are easy and some that are just right.
Seriously, threre are some holes on my home course that I have not birdied in 4 years of play, and some holes I average under par. I enjoy the challenge and variety.

 

[DSCJNKY]

In Ball Golf (please don't tell me ball golf and disc golf are different... it's golf) they give you 2 putts to make Par. So, if the hole is a Par 4, you drive to an ideal location in the fairway, pitch to the green, and have 2 putts to get your par.

It sounds to me like the holes the OP is describing (400' woods shot with a landing zone 200' out) is a Par 4. Throw your drive to the ideal landing zone, pitch over to the "green" and get a putt for birdie, miss it and get a par. screw up along the way and get a Bogey or worse.

Although I do agree that the top pros should not be winning with scores like -40. We'll see how it goes in Charlotte this summer.
DSCJNKY

 

[Cgkdisc]

The only ways you'll get scores that are not as much under par for top pros is to assign holes as Par 2s that legitimately average under 2.5 for them and/or increase the ratio of disc diameter to basket diameter. Even then, players with a 1040 rating are expected to average -4 to -5 against course SSA which is usually lower than the listed par. So at Worlds with 7.5 rounds, the winner is going to shoot between -40 to -50 overall even on wooded courses like Charlotte.

(Oh, you could also make a very unfun course where no holes are birdieable)

 

[Jay Dub]

Changing a hole from a par 3 to a par 4 will not change your score. If it makes you feel better to say that the 54 you shot was -4 for the course, OK. But it's still a 54.

 

[HotPinkBeast]

Another factor is, is it...

a Par 3 course?

a Par 3, 4 course?

a Par 3, 4, 5 course?

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

You should turn in your man card for even thinking this. :doh:

 

[DSmith]

Sounds to me like its a birdiable par 4, not a par 3. An easy birdie if most skill levels are all scoring the same.

 

[DavidSauls]

I love those virtually-unbirdieable, tough-par x.3 holes. Wouldn't want a course full of them, but a handful adds to the challenge and balances out the easy birdie holes.

 

[sloppydisc]

Truth

I'm all about variety.
Gimme some tough ones and some that are easy and some that are just right.
Seriously, threre are some holes on my home course that I have not birdied in 4 years of play, and some holes I average under par. I enjoy the challenge and variety.

The junkie speaks the word of truth. Listen well.

 

[smarkquart]

Without reading every post, I will keep it simple. This sport is disc GOLF, and playing golf versus just throwing means you have to use strategy. This means weighing risk versus reward, going for it all versus going for placement to minimize adding throws/ strokes to your score. Ultimately this means that EVERY hole you play you should be shooting for par; birdies and aces are rewards for exceptional shots but should not be the norm. If so, the hole is too easy (or should be lowered to a Par 2, which overall I am against).

Simply put, every hole should be birdie-able with exceptional shots, but not EVERY hole should be deuce-able. This means that not EVERY hole should be aceable. A course needs to have a small handful of pars above 3. Otherwise you are not going to have a scoring spread amongst players of relatively the same ability on any given day.

 

[jtreadwell]

I like them to be physically possible for at least one superhuman on the planet to do it. If Climo at his best can't birdie a hole, it needs a higher par. That being said, I'll open a WHOLE other can of worms (that has opened so often it's more like a tupperware at this point) and say that I prefer to not even consider par and just write the number of strokes down. Lowest score gets the win.

 

[gdub58]

The ball golf comparison is only valid if disc golf courses were constructed more like ball golf courses. You take your average ball golf course, put the top pros on the white tees, and they will consistently shoot 8 to 12 under each round. A tournament-quality course, stretched to the tips, and you have a real test for the top players. Heck, even then someone shoots a hot round of 7 or 8 down. The difference is that "advanced" players (6-12 handicap) will get destroyed. Case in point - for a couple of years they had an event where regular guys try to break 100 on the upcoming US Open course (rarely accomplished). Unless you are a scratch golfer, you are never going to get a birdie on a 475 yard par four with a second shot requiring a 190 yard carry over water to a fast, undulating green.

To the OP's question, in a perfect world every hole should be yield a birdie if really good shots are thrown, but only in relation to the skill level of the player. In other words, I'm sure I could not get a two on a 400' hole in tight woods, but that's because I can't throw it that far. For me, there would need to be another tee, maybe 275', with some sort of line to the basket.

So, no, every hole should not be able to yield at least an occasional birdie to every player, unless you have 3-4 different tees on every hole.