Should TDs be paid

[thrembo]

The main thing is to be completely honest and upfront about who gets what. I don't care if you are running the tournament to buy groceries for your kids. Just let me know. Shady stuff scares people away. But yes: Pay your tournament directors. Help them and thank them and hold them dear.

 

[Steve West]

...
Would you (or do you think the same amount of people) would attend a tournament where there is no player pack, there are no payouts, just trophies . . . merchandise can still be purchased of course but its not mandatorily included in the tourney entry....

Older players want no stuff. Not even trophies. We've got piles of tourney-stamped max weight discs we don't want to throw and other junk we won't use (like gaudy dri-fit shirts). If we want discs, we just buy them. The discs we actually want, not something someone else got a deal on.

We'll still sign up for high-cost, big payout tourneys, because even the highest entry fee is worth it for the pure experience. But, we'd rather see the money go to directly to the TD than add to the layers of useless discs in the trunk.

The only thing other than compensating the TD plus the costs of running the tournament would be to - maybe - pay a video team or photographer.

 

[ru4por]

I completely agree . . . the market decides who gets paid what. Better TD's get better attendance which in turns provides a better experience for the players. Lesser attended events don't draw the people and its tough to draw any sponsorship.

I am not telling people they have to value me or people like me for their efforts. . . but I am glad I am appreciated by the people in my area. I know what its like when you are a TD that gets a bad rap and it isn't pretty.

Now here is another question that is related but a tangent off the main subject . . .

Would you (or do you think the same amount of people) would attend a tournament where there is no player pack, there are no payouts, just trophies . . . merchandise can still be purchased of course but its not mandatorily included in the tourney entry.

So let's say I charge $15 per person for a tourney and provide trophies dependent on attendance. You get nothing else included. What kind of turnout would there be for an event like that? I'd guess not so good even with the price being so low to accommodate more people of lesser means.

SO if the only way people get behind a tournament is if they get stuff . . . then why shouldn't they be willing to pay full retail price through their entry fees?

I've considered offering a tourney or two like that just to have an experiment.

Yup. But, I work all week to make money, and I make decisions on how I wish to spend my discretionary entertainment dollars. I will pay a couple hundred bucks for Mrs. ru4por and I to go down to see a Wings game. Many think that is outlandish, but it is a decision we make.

I play tournaments to enjoy myself. I don't need player pack stuff, I don't need trophies and I don't need money paid back to me for playing well. I realize others have different takes.

I play to challenge myself and for the love of the game. I play because the competition jazzes me. I play to meet new people and hang out with disc golf friends. Maybe my needs are simple.

Poor tournaments are defined by the preparation of the course, the competency of the tournament staff to run a quick, efficient and pleasurable event.

 

[jivey311]

I just got into the TD game a few years ago. I only really have time to do 1 event a year, but we try to make it the biggest and best as we can be.

Generally our goal is to give close to 100% payouts to the players. All the park fees, PDGA fees, and other random park fees comes from Sponsors. Once all our fees are paid out, any other sponsor donations that come aboard gets added to the payout.

We also try to give a good value in player pack, for example, this year is a C-tier, and the pack is a $40ish value. DD disc, Shirt, Pint glass, and free lunch. (Again, not coming out of payouts. I fronted the $ myself, on the hopes of finding enough sponsors to cover the costs--and yes we are very close) I've never made any $ off events. I'd be happy about breaking even. The tough part about TDing, is all the upfront costs of the event with all the fees and merch for players packs.

And before anyone says anything about "Make the players pack smaller, so you can have more payout...." Our payout is pretty dang good! Even with all that extra stuff you get.

It's tough to please everyone, because you really could go either way with all the decisions. But in the end, we're just putting on a event that we'd like to play in. And make it feel like an event, not just an afternoon round with your buddies.

Right now TDing is a labor of love, but in the future I may quit running PDGA events and just do unsanctioned events, less costs, less stress = more time for family.

 

[JC17393]

The tough part about TDing, is all the upfront costs of the event with all the fees and merch for players packs.

Agreed. So often, when fronting for those things, you're left with extra stock at the end of the tournament (fewer players than expected, bought extra "just in case", etc). Either that eats away any potential profit from the retail mark-up of what is "sold" to player packs and/or payout, or it's a loss until the TD can sell off the remainder (which requires still more effort).

This is where I think having a flat fee built into the entries that is just for the TD can help matters. At the very least, it takes a bit of the pressure off of relying on high attendance in order to "break even" on anything that is spent upfront.

 

[harr0140]

Older players want no stuff. Not even trophies. We've got piles of tourney-stamped max weight discs we don't want to throw and other junk we won't use (like gaudy dri-fit shirts). If we want discs, we just buy them. The discs we actually want, not something someone else got a deal on.

We'll still sign up for high-cost, big payout tourneys, because even the highest entry fee is worth it for the pure experience. But, we'd rather see the money go to directly to the TD than add to the layers of useless discs in the trunk.

The only thing other than compensating the TD plus the costs of running the tournament would be to - maybe - pay a video team or photographer.

I can totally see that Steve. . . the sport and most events seems driven by the people who have only been playing for a couple years at the most. I might just throw a little kink into the way I run events and see how it all works out.

When a TD complains they cannot sell their discs at intended prices (because they are being undercut by a bunch of amateur players selling off their player packs for less than retail) . . . they only have themselves (and the way the events seem to be setup) to blame for forcing people to take a bunch of stuff they dont want and will ultimately try to resell to recoup their entry fee. This is a theory I have been wondering about for a while and i might have my answer. I didn't pull the trigger on it because a lot of people do like the player pack with a custom stamped disc regardless of what disc it is . . . but many do not care, they just turn it and sell it. I will test out 1 tournament this year if I am pull it off in the new format and see how it is received.

 

[Grayson]

By all means they should get paid. I would prefer a flat fee system per event rather than a cut from the retail/wholesale plastic. Too many feel its "their business" and throw a deluge of cheapened events which ultimately taints the sport. It becomes more of how much plastic is moved than the quality of events. JMHO from viewing it too many times.

 

[BrotherDave]

Maybe TDs should just put out a tip jar. :\

 

[ru4por]

Maybe TDs should just put out a tip jar. :\

How am I gonna fit a six pack of tasty craft beer into a tip jar??

 

[BrotherDave]

How am I gonna fit a six pack of tasty craft beer into a tip jar??

Just see me at the car between rounds. :|


BroD:-------------->will direct tournaments (poorly) for booze

 

[lyleoross]

A number of posters have already written this, but like them, I play for the experience. Heck, most times I don't take the player's pack. If I do, I leave the disc and give the stickers to my sons. Then they stick them on a bike or some such. The whole participation trophy/disc thing does nothing for me. I have a few items from events where I've volunteered, but those are shirts, i.e. I wear them.

How I do, and the experience of the course, and the volunteers and their effort, means a lot more to me than the gifts. Years of accumulating junk from birthday parties, store openings, park openings, account openings, job giveaways - gawd, who wants to label themselves as, the property of xyz corp? and other various giveaways has left my garage filled with crap. The world is dying, yep I know, Trump says we're fine, but the last thing I want is another piece of plastic garbage of any type that I'm not gonna use. Even if you don't believe in global warming, I grew up on the Snohomish River in Washington. I spent hours fishing and picking up plastic that lazy folks had left. Now I travel through the Carribean and pick up the plastic the same lazy people throw in the ocean. I don't want anything to add to the burden. No cups, no bag tags, no stickers, no drink holders. None of it impresses me as much as walking down a clean riverbank in the mountains.

 

[araytx]

I'm ok with TD's taking a percentage of added cash raised past the minimum.

That's going above and beyond and creating incentive to increase a payout.

But just simply saying "I get $100?" No.

Also TD's make money currently off profit from ams.

This^^^


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not necessarily. You are making assumptions about ALL TDs, which Ink is for a fact does not apply to all TDs.


That being said, the issue is the quality of the TD. I have no problem paying the great TD. The one who tries to work hard and do everything right; I'd likely struggle with the one doing it for the money.

 

[JRW III]

In my opinion, TDs should be paid. In reality, it is up to the TD to decide whether to pay himself or not.

There are several reasons for a TD not to pay himself:

1) His personal choice: He is doing it for the love of the game or whatever other reason and chooses not to pay himself.

2) Market forces:

2a) In order to be competitive with the other tournaments in the area, there is not enough margin left to pay himself.

2b) Because other TDs in the area don't take a fee, he feels pressured to do the same.

3) Not enough margin left to still meet the PDGA guidelines: I think there is enough room in the PDGA guidelines to pay a TD at a C-Tier (assuming the TD is either vending himself or getting a cut from the selected vendor that he can decide where the cut goes). I could see instances where a TD wants a higher tier and there may not be enough margin left to pay the TD.

 

[JRW III]

Sidebar on the "Cost / Retail Margin on AM payout": Often I see people quote "The TD gets 50% of the AM dollars". While they do get some, it doesn't work out to 50%. For one, depending on the manufacture and the retail price point, the gross margin is not even 50%. There are a lot of costs and cash flow requirements to self vend (in the first three tournaments I ran and self vended, we spent a significant more amount of cash than we brought in). So much so that many TDs choose not to vend. Instead they outsource to a third party. I am sure it is done different elsewhere, but around here I have seen it typical for the selected vendor to be a sponsor and add cash to the payout. Regardless of self vend or third party, there should be funds here for the TD to pay himself if he chooses to not put it all back to the tournament.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's a good point, but leads to the reminder that there are many different financial structures for events, and assuming that one is like another can lead you astray.

Some vend themselves, some have a 3rd party vendor, from whom they may or may not get a cut. Some purchase enough merch to cover a full event, and have to deal with the excess if they don't fill. Some have fixed expenses that others don't have---even if they vend and get the margin on the merchandise, if they have to spend $1,000 for the course rental and $200 on PDGA fees and $200 for porta-johns, there might be nothing left for the TD. Some bring in sponsorships, some don't or can't.

The assumption that a TD can make a profit on an event is dependent on a lot of other assumptions---and typically, the idea that every tournament is run the way the poster's local events are run.

 

[lyleoross]

It's a good point, but leads to the reminder that there are many different financial structures for events, and assuming that one is like another can lead you astray.

Some vend themselves, some have a 3rd party vendor, from whom they may or may not get a cut. Some purchase enough merch to cover a full event, and have to deal with the excess if they don't fill. Some have fixed expenses that others don't have---even if they vend and get the margin on the merchandise, if they have to spend $1,000 for the course rental and $200 on PDGA fees and $200 for porta-johns, there might be nothing left for the TD. Some bring in sponsorships, some don't or can't.

The assumption that a TD can make a profit on an event is dependent on a lot of other assumptions---and typically, the idea that every tournament is run the way the poster's local events are run.

A trend I have noticed here in Houston is that increasingly, TDS are vendors or have a tight relationship with a vendor. Ten years ago that wasn't the case. If the model is Vendor runs events, good enough.

 

[JRW III]

It's a good point, but leads to the reminder that there are many different financial structures for events, and assuming that one is like another can lead you astray.

Some vend themselves, some have a 3rd party vendor, from whom they may or may not get a cut. Some purchase enough merch to cover a full event, and have to deal with the excess if they don't fill. Some have fixed expenses that others don't have---even if they vend and get the margin on the merchandise, if they have to spend $1,000 for the course rental and $200 on PDGA fees and $200 for porta-johns, there might be nothing left for the TD. Some bring in sponsorships, some don't or can't.

The assumption that a TD can make a profit on an event is dependent on a lot of other assumptions---and typically, the idea that every tournament is run the way the poster's local events are run.

Agreed. Lots of variables and different situations.

At the end of the day, it is still the choice of the TD. i.e. the TD chooses the park that has a high fee vs. the park with the low fee, the TD chooses not to self vend, the TD chooses not to seek sponsorship, etc... Sometimes it is a free choice and sometimes it is a choice they are forced to make. An example is that Innova has a great tournament sponsorship program but some TDs may not have the initial cash flow to take advantage of it or the local demand to sell the CFR discs.

 

[Three Putt]

The assumption that a TD can make a profit on an event is dependent on a lot of other assumptions---and typically, the idea that every tournament is run the way the poster's local events are run.

One of the obvious things is that disc golf is insular: disc golfers hold events for disc golfers. Your main qualification for running an event isn't experience organizing or running events. The main qualification is that you play disc golf. Because of that, you get really cool dudes you like a lot stepping up to volunteer and getting in so far over their heads that it would be comical if it wasn't an actual dude you know about to get swamped. Some people running events simply don't know how to make them profitable.

Some people are stuck in a bad situation. Here we have a disorganized, low membership club. We have Disc Golf Monkey running events in the area. Disc Golf Monkey has sponsorship agreements and has wholesale/retail agreements becasue he does this as a business. Russ actually knows what he is doing. As a result, the local expectation for events run by our disorganized, low membership club is that we will out of the gate run Disc Golf Monkey-quality events. To try to match the Disc Golf Monkey payout expectations with our lack of experience, lack of sponsorship and lack of vendor relationships would be a recipe for a cash-hemorrhaging event. Trouble is, our club is so lacking in experience that they don't even realize that. It would be super duper easy for people here to get way in over their head, lose a lot of money and run an event that didn't make the players happy. It would be less so if having experience running events was more of a prerequisite.

 

[DavidSauls]

Agreed. Lots of variables and different situations.

At the end of the day, it is still the choice of the TD. i.e. the TD chooses the park that has a high fee vs. the park with the low fee, the TD chooses not to self vend, the TD chooses not to seek sponsorship, etc... Sometimes it is a free choice and sometimes it is a choice they are forced to make. An example is that Innova has a great tournament sponsorship program but some TDs may not have the initial cash flow to take advantage of it or the local demand to sell the CFR discs.

Sometimes the choice is whether to be a TD, at all.

Some of it is tied to the course. If a person, business, or club want to run an event at a particular course, it may come with costs, rules, or restrictions. Sometimes that's the only course in the area, or all of the courses are run by the same Parks Dept.

Some places the choices are easier. Within commuting range of Innova, clubs can get merch on consignment, so they can vend and not get stuck with the excess, nor have to come out of pocket in advance.

I'm biased like everyone else---I'm only familiar with a few models: The one we use on our private course, the one the local club uses on public courses, and, vaguely, the one a disc golf vendor uses running his own events across the Carolinas. Sometimes I forget this, when discussing with other TDs whose circumstances include problems I never imagined.