Should We Allow Retroactive Provisionals?

[araytx]

I concede the semantics aray! Also, Sorry for thread drift. My thinking was a player can throw a provisional "whenever" they don't agree with the ruling of the card or official regarding the status of their disc. "That's not my orange disc you think you see, it's a pile of autumn leaves." Of course an unreasonable player can make an unreasonable argument for a provisional. If I thought "gaming" was involved I'd probably say so and report to the TD if it was disruptive. Change a vote for speed of play? Sure, as long as it is fair. Overall, I'd have a hard time voting to refuse a provisional request. Plus I can't prevent someone from throwing a provisional if they want to; can only take it to TD afterward. Back to topic: I'm leaning toward leaving the rule as is or maybe with a small change as suggested by teemkey in #34. I don't post much but I treasure thoughtful dialogue. Thanks.

I also agree with the red. With even slightest doubt, I'll always allow the player to throw the provisional. However, my concern with "retro" provisionals is that it will allow players to game the practice throw rule. Our oh-so-slight thread drift was because Steve challenged me that they could do it under current rules anyway and I disagreed. They can't if the card rules in the player's favor.

 

[worldwide]

when you throw your tee shot, if you have reasonable grounds to believe that it might be OB then you throw a provisional. the provisional is used as the lie if the first tee shot is lost. if the first tee shot is found but OB then the player must play from the point of entry or drop zone. if the original tee shot is lost then the player can take the in bounds provisional as their lie throwing 3. there is no such thing as an optional provisional

 

[worldwide]

a rectoactive provisional is the same as a re-tee if I understand correctly. if you get out in the fairway and can't find the disc after 3 mins you have to go back to the previous lie and throw again with a penalty. what good would a provisional do at that point? the disc is declared lost and you move on

 

[Steve West]

Reviving this thread for the situation in the "how many penalty strokes" thread.

A player lost his disc, but thought he found it way up a tree so played from the found disc. When the disc came down, he saw it wasn't his.

Would there be any harm if the rules were changed so that he could have played on as if he had said "I'm playing this disc provisionally in case I find out it isn't mine when I get a better look at it."?

 

[1978]

I would see benefit in being able to say this is a provisional throw. Once I knock my disc down and we can see what it is I wont get penalized if it is not my disc.

But you would still have to play the rule of a re-tee if it actually wasnt your disc. Or a lost disc drop zone if one was in play.

 

[teemkey]

Reviving this thread for the situation in the "how many penalty strokes" thread.

A player lost his disc, but thought he found it way up a tree so played from the found disc. When the disc came down, he saw it wasn't his.

Would there be any harm if the rules were changed so that he could have played on as if he had said "I'm playing this disc provisionally in case I find out it isn't mine when I get a better look at it."?

As long as he also returns to the tee and plays out the lost disc scenario, is there a rule change needed?

 

[Karl]

Two scenarios would come about. One, it ends up being his and life continues as we know it. Two, it ends up NOT being his and life gets more complicated - as you never stated that he would have to 'play it both ways' (as if it was his and as if it was not his). Would take a bit extra time...but maybe no biggie as this probably doesn't happen too often.
Right now positive ID of a disc is required I believe so in lieu of that he'd have to play it like a lost disc, no?

 

[teemkey]

You have to assume the card disagreed that it's his disc in the tree, otherwise why would there be a need for a provisional?

 

[Steve West]

As long as he also returns to the tee and plays out the lost disc scenario, is there a rule change needed?

To wipe out the one-throw misplay penalty. The penalty he could have avoided by declaring a provisional before throwing from under the wrong disc.

You have to assume the card disagreed that it's his disc in the tree, otherwise why would there be a need for a provisional?

His disc may be lost. If the disc up in the tree isn't his, then his disc is lost.

However, that's a good point. If we did retroactive provisionals (or something like it) we might need more general wording, like "whenever a player has found they played wrong, if they have made only one throw since the error".

It sure seems to me like the way we want the game to proceed in this case is to say: "Oh look, that wasn't your disc. Forget that throw. Let's keep looking for yours for the remainder of the three minutes."

 

[krupicka]

That situation could have been avoided if he had pulled the disc down before throwing. A misplay is a misplay. If all misplays just become "oops" then players will become even more lazy about following the rules.

 

[mrtho]

^^^this

the problem with a retroactive provisional is it gives a choice for example:

I throw from the tee and see I'm near OB. I throw again without saying anything. Was that second tee shot a provisional or a rethrow?

If i get down there and my first shot is OB sure i can say it was a rethrow. The problem with a retroactive provisional comes in when I actually like the first one better "OH that second one? Um...er...It was a provisional in case my first one was OB".

It isn't hard to say "Im taking a provisional because_____________".

I started the "how many penalty strokes" thread and would feel sorry for the guy returning to the tee to take his 4th, but that is the nature of any rule book. You simply cannot predict ALL crazy rare situations. The truth is in that situation you mark his scorecard play from his disc if found or the tee if not and ask the TD how that should go.

 

[Steve West]

^^^this

the problem with a retroactive provisional is it gives a choice for example:

I throw from the tee and see I'm near OB. I throw again without saying anything. Was that second tee shot a provisional or a rethrow?

If i get down there and my first shot is OB sure i can say it was a rethrow. The problem with a retroactive provisional comes in when I actually like the first one better "OH that second one? Um...er...It was a provisional in case my first one was OB".

It isn't hard to say "Im taking a provisional because_____________".

I started the "how many penalty strokes" thread and would feel sorry for the guy returning to the tee to take his 4th, but that is the nature of any rule book. You simply cannot predict ALL crazy rare situations. The truth is in that situation you mark his scorecard play from his disc if found or the tee if not and ask the TD how that should go.

That wouldn't be a retroactive provisional. There would be no choice in a retroactive provisional. That's definitely a key requirement, to not give the player a choice between two known lies.

In your scenario, that second throw would be (initially) the play-from-the-previous-lie option in the OB rules, because provisionals and optional re-throws can't happen unless the player announces it. Now, if

A. The player gets down to the disc and sees the disc is OB, he plays 3 from the re-throw

B The player gets down to the disc and sees it is not OB, he plays 2 from the position of the disc.

No choice. Just playing it the way it should have been played.

A retroactive provisional would only be to erase a misplay, and then you would be required to do it. It would not cover "I meant to call it an optional re-throw".

 

[mrtho]

That wouldn't be a retroactive provisional. There would be no choice in a retroactive provisional. That's definitely a key requirement, to not give the player a choice between two known lies.

In your scenario, that second throw would be (initially) the play-from-the-previous-lie option in the OB rules, because provisionals and optional re-throws can't happen unless the player announces it. Now, if

A. The player gets down to the disc and sees the disc is OB, he plays 3 from the re-throw

B The player gets down to the disc and sees it is not OB, he plays 2 from the position of the disc.

No choice. Just playing it the way it should have been played.

A retroactive provisional would only be to erase a misplay, and then you would be required to do it. It would not cover "I meant to call it an optional re-throw".

To me it still seems to give the option of "Oh crap I dont like that one"

 

[araytx]

Steve, I still don't like the "retroactive provisional," because the players still gets to see the outcome before deciding. Let's say instead of (still thinking the disc in the briers up there is his disc) "pitching out", he attempts a hero shot from whereever he is. Scenario 1) If it ricochets off other trees and goes in the basket. Well now no way he's calling that a retroactive provisional. Oops, we knock down the disc in the briers and it's not his. Yep I'm re-teeing but throwing four, wait I want retro active provisional so I'm throwing three. I re-tee... oops, there's another blue disc in the basket. We look, that was his... oh wait, are there any penalty throws?

OR Scenario 2) the guy with the arm can't get it, so we say we'll come back after the round, and they play on. OOps after the round we knock that disc down and it's not his. WHAT NOW?

I know i'm embellishing, but the retroactive provisional as I said upthread can be used to game the system, if not the actual scores, it can certainly be used to game the practice throw rule.

 

[Steve West]

To me it still seems to give the option of "Oh crap I dont like that one"

How? It's either OB or not. He either plays the re-throw or not. No choice by the player.

 

[teemkey]

Scenario 2) the guy with the arm can't get it, so we say we'll come back after the round, and they play on. OOps after the round we knock that disc down and it's not his. WHAT NOW?

A very good question.

1) Misplay (+2 throws)
2) Group made a ruling, the ruling stands.
3) ???

 

[araytx]

A very good question.

1) Misplay (+2 throws)
2) Group made a ruling, the ruling stands.
3) ???

BUT the group also made a ruling in the OP. They just happened to have been WRONG!

 

[araytx]

How? It's either OB or not. He either plays the re-throw or not. No choice by the player.

Steve it works in this case. I don't think you can write a general rule to accomplish the same ANY TIME a player wants a retroactive provisional...

 

[Steve West]

Steve it works in this case. I don't think you can write a general rule to accomplish the same ANY TIME a player wants a retroactive provisional...

I think it's possible. Right now, there is no choice for any provisional. The RA would just work like the player had the foresight to call a provisional. There would still be no choice.

But, for the moment, assume it could work. Are there other good and bad things about it?

 

[teemkey]

BUT the group also made a ruling in the OP. They just happened to have been WRONG!

I wonder if 801.03.D could be applied to the OP's scenario.

If a ruling is overturned, an Official or the Director may adjust the player's score to reflect the correct interpretation of the rules. Alternatively, the Director may have the player replay one or more holes. Rulings by the Director are final.

i.e. over ruling the group's incorrect judgment that the player's disc was found.