Shoulder timing

[HyzerUniBomber]

Over opening, or really not quite understanding what proper opening / timing was threw me for a real loop. In the past I called it "shoulder involvement" or some variation of that, not quite realizing how much power was added when the hit links up with the shoulder pulling you through.

This was super fast, so forgive anything that I screwed up, but I believe the timing is right here - so that at the hit, the upper arm is 90 degrees from the shoulders.

I've been able to throw my Truth mid-range very close to 400' like this and drivers 440-450' with my fairly lazy x-step. (First shot is a 173g Truth) - had a pain in the butt tail wind that was knocking everything down. Last drive measured 440'.



If you've been emailing me, please forgive me for my late/non-responses. New job + a contract job + doing taxes (self employed wife = total pain) + trying to play golf and throw field work once a week has left me painfully unavailable. I've been wanting to get the above timing image documented for a long time, finally figured I'd just hash it out.

Hope you guys are crushing drives.

 

[wildwing]

Totally not what I thought this would be. All this time, I thought the shoulders needed to be parallel to the direction of the throw as the elbow is opening up.

I was actually watching slow mo vids of McBeth last night and totally mirrored what you have on your image.

Thanks for this HUB. Gonna try this out.

 

[wreckreation]

So just to make sure I understand, this is saying that a common/inferior drive would have the upper arm swung wider open when the disc leaves the hand and the shoulders would be in a more closed position, when instead you should keep your upper arm at 90 degrees from your shoulders and your shoulders (and whole upper body) should be in a more open position when the disc ejects. Is that correct?

Is it a mistake in the diagram that the arm opens wider than 90 degrees in the first part of the throw and then goes back to 90 degrees at the end? Or is that intentional?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I would argue that the shoulders do catch up a bit as the forearm is extending. By "catching up" the shoulders give me something extra to uncork against during the hit.

 

[slowplastic]

In which frame do you feel like you're really putting all your effort into your shoulder? Is it at the 90 degree frame or do you start to more smoothly accelerate before that?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

See the shoulders opening in 6, 7, and 8

Here's the "corking" of the shoulders in action:

 

[slowplastic]

In which frame do you feel like you're really putting all your effort into your shoulder? Is it at the 90 degree frame or do you start to more smoothly accelerate before that?

Just to be clear...I don't know body words really heh. I am meaning when do you use the muscles that power the shoulder socket/upper arm to really open up that arm and fling it around? I wasn't talking about the alignment of the shoulders relative to throw line.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

W/ respect to the "when" does the engine start: in the MikeC overhead #6 is when it starts and it seems to multiply at about 8 - and I think that's mainly because the shoulders are open and you've hit an elasticity constraint when your upper arm is fighting to stay at 90 degrees, being pushed open by the opening shoulders.

 

[sidewinder22]

Over opening, or really not quite understanding what proper opening / timing was threw me for a real loop. In the past I called it "shoulder involvement" or some variation of that, not quite realizing how much power was added when the hit links up with the shoulder pulling you through.

Nice diagram. What I see most struggling players do is their shoulders are already open in the last 1 or 2 frames of the top line.

 

[Jouni]

Wow. This changed my drive completely. For some bizarre reason even after reading hundreds of pages of DGR and DGCR technique forums, attending clinics held by European and World Champions, I never understood this properly. I always though that stopping the elbow meant that I should stop it so that elbow points to the target, like I am pulling the disc through my chest until my elbow cant move forward anymore, and then open the lower arm etc. And I tried to reduce the shoulder motion in order to this work, so essentially from fourth figure I would just keep moving the upper arm until it was in same line as shoulders towards the target, before opening up the lower/upper-arm hinge.

I just tried this on the field on my way to work, and even though my XT Atlas and Soft Ibex flew just around 70 meters like before, they flew dead straight with minimal fade (finally I understand people who say Atlas is really straight...), and almost always directly towards target (and low, like 2-3 meters high, no nose up sky drives). Few time I opened my shoulders too quickly or weren't able to stop the elbow to 90 degrees or so, and the disc went too much to right, but those occasions were much more rare than in my usual throw.

Funny thing is, I have been playing lot's with my Soft Summit on some short course lately, and some time ago I learned how to throw it smoothly from stand still without throwing 20 meters over the basket. In this shots I kept the disc bit further away from my body, and concentrated on leveraging the disc around figures 4-5, without really thinking about the angles of between torso and upper arm. But now that I saw this, I realized that I was actually doing what I was supposed to do in full drives as well.

 

[Rockch4lk]

Nice diagram. What I see most struggling players do is their shoulders are already open in the last 1 or 2 frames of the top line.

I agree, I myself find that at the last frame on the top my shoulders are already well towards the target. I really struggle to hold everything back a split second longer than I think I need to. I always find myself cutting corners on my throw (which I think is natural). I have tried to combat this by turning further back on the back swing, but this has just made me turn my shoulders forward faster and I get myself into the same position at the last frame on the top.

 

[zj1002]

I would argue that the shoulders do catch up a bit as the forearm is extending. By "catching up" the shoulders give me something extra to uncork against during the hit.

Yup yup and a lot of it goes back to proper footwork. You use the legs to get the body moving forward with the disc. The shoulders open as a result of the body shifting forward. If you don't keep your body weight with the disc, its impossible to get the arm forward and have the shoulders open properly.

That's why I always say balance and athleticism is 100% key. Its a lot easier to slow a super athletic person down than trying to teach someone how to be more explosive. It usually never materializes because the reps and conditioning aren't up to par.

 

[Rockch4lk]

That's why I always say balance and athleticism is 100% key. Its a lot easier to slow a super athletic person down than trying to teach someone how to be more explosive. It usually never materializes because the reps and conditioning aren't up to par.

This is what I have been struggling with. I like to think of myself as an athletic individual and always had arm strength that was greater than most, but disc golf is different. I feel like I have to slow myself WAY down. Throwing anything else I could usually speed up to 11 and crank on it, not a disc...

 

[wrambler]

HyzerUniBomber, thank you for posting and for the graphic. After reading I did some slow practice swings at home and could tell I was opening my shoulder too soon (angle between upper arm and chest greater than 90 degrees too early in swing).

Today I did some field work and decided to play with keeping my shoulder at 90 longer into the swing. I was throwing some discs toward a treeline, first 2 landed about 20-30 ft short of the treeline, about where I expected them to land based on my normal throw. The 3rd throw I really focused on waiting to release my shoulder and BAM, hit one of the trees in the treeline at least 10 feet up. Not sure what distance it would have gone but it would have been a personal record for RHBH. Only got about 15 min of practice before dark but was getting a lot more speed and distance out of my discs, was flipping some discs which I haven't flipped before. Discs that were stalling-out previously were flying nicely. This minor change really got my arm whipping like I've been trying to do. Thanks! :thmbup:

 

[RobA]

Over Analyze Much?

Wow, I don't have enough time or energy to analyze my throw to this level.

 

[rickles]

I do...I want to get better in all areas of the game...

 

[Rockch4lk]

If I were throwing my truth 400' I would not need a fairway driver, or a distance driver. I would carry a truth and a putter. #jealous

 

[46YearOldSlinger]

Sweet! This thread and the Heavydisc latest blog made something click for me. As I was trying to get the upper arm back to 90 degrees from the shoulder this FORCED me slow down my arm. Really it can't be done (at least for me) without slowing down the arm. Then when the arm slows down the shoulder rotation "yanks" the arm around giving that whip like sensation that sometimes comes and goes for me. By slowing the arm and letting the shoulders catch up and "yank" the whip like sensation is coming more consistently rather than hit and miss like it used to be. Am I interpreting this correctly? Does this make sense or am I still missing something?

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Sounds right to me but wording is a little off as your arm shouldnt come around but whip FW. The disc will feel heavier than normal and the throw should be easier as well.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Exactly, and personally I think of the forearm as staying loose through the motion, so that it can accept the whipping forward. There's always somebody asking about "if you're forcing the arm open" and I don't.

Really good timing seems to create a compression of that 90 degree angle just enough to springboard the levers open.