Shoulder timing

[ash81]

I do...I want to get better in all areas of the game...

I'm obsessed with this. I play the course to have fun and test what I've worked on but those days are becoming fewer and the ones where I drive with my bag and caffeine source to the field for practice within a half hour of waking up are becoming routine.

Exactly, and personally I think of the forearm as staying loose through the motion, so that it can accept the whipping forward. There's always somebody asking about "if you're forcing the arm open" and I don't.

Really good timing seems to create a compression of that 90 degree angle just enough to springboard the levers open.

This really bridged a gap for me. I'm about to begin "crushing the can" as a drill and I've played with dingle arm and Hershyzer, but when I stop to put it all together (holding my brand new hammer or a disc. I switch out so I can observe the contrast in terms of weight and feel), I cand feel that initial tightness between the left leg, through my hips, and to the right leg which is already planted (RHBH). Two issues I have with loosing the tight feel are bringing my heel up for crushing/planting/bracing, and shifting my focus to leading out with my elbow. I suspect that widening my stance too much for the weight shift is my first culprit, but the second always felt like I lost that spring in my arm, and I've come to recognize the feel of pulling my arm out in front of the power witch I understand is strong arming. After reading this I'm suspecting that by thinking too much about the elbow chop, I'm pulling my shoulders open in front of the power and robbing myself. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Recording myself will give more insight of course.

Also, I've come to the realization that putting your body into place according to what you think is correct, or see as correct, is much different than hitting those points because you began the whole chain correctly from the get go (Yes I did read HUB's kinetic chain article a little while back, but it just now sunk in).

 

[runningDoc]

here's the diagram for lefties! you still want the 90º angle with upper arm and shoulder line, but now you'd theoretically hold the disc at 8:00 instead of 4:00

 

[threevok]

Why did you change the text to Hebrew?

 

[Mocheez]

Shouldn't the upper arm collapse towards the chest during the initial turn? The arm angle shouldn't exceed 90 degrees until the shoulders start to open towards the target.

I would put the 4th frame at 90 degrees, the 5th and 6th frames slightly past 90 degrees, and the last frame back to 90 degrees.

 

[sidewinder22]

Shouldn't the upper arm collapse towards the chest during the initial turn? The arm angle shouldn't exceed 90 degrees until the shoulders start to open towards the target.

I would put the 4th frame at 90 degrees, the 5th and 6th frames slightly past 90 degrees, and the last frame back to 90 degrees.

I'm assuming the arm collapsed already in the first frame, I know I start wider than 90 degrees. Then it's going into the weight/shift/bracing slowing the shoulder and the elbow is moving faster widening the upper arm angle again.

 

[anrew18]

here's the diagram for lefties! you still want the 90º angle with upper arm and shoulder line, but now you'd theoretically hold the disc at 8:00 instead of 4:00

lol you are my new favorite person for doing this!

 

[runningDoc]

Why did you change the text to Hebrew?

thats the way left handed people learn to read and write!

lol you are my new favorite person for doing this!

ok now its really fixed.

 

[anrew18]

yeah all the magic happens at 8 o'clock not 4. everyone knows that.

 

[Peter_LG]

I'm trying to get the timing down in conjunction with the feet, legs, and hips. So, to merge tutorials a bit, the front foot crushes the can between steps 2 and 3...where I've put the star?

 

[Mocheez]

The can is crushed on or before #1

 

[Majicmarkr]

Questions on timing

So I've been thinking about this topic lately and really like the diagrams in this thread so I want to revive it. When driving I open my shoulders, leading with the head, from the full reach back position. It feels powerful but it sounds like I'm really missing the snap/power what have you.
It sounds like getting the disc to the right pec and not opening the shoulders too soon is very important. I practiced this today over lunch and felt very awkward and left me with a lot of questions.
If the disc needs to passively be positioned in front of the right pec why not just start with the disc there instead of reaching back? From the full reach back position when exactly is the disc moved to the chest area? And is that move performed by curling the arm in or by the shoulder opening up and pulling the disc to the chest? I have more questions but I'll start with those. TIA

 

[slowplastic]

So I've been thinking about this topic lately and really like the diagrams in this thread so I want to revive it. When driving I open my shoulders, leading with the head, from the full reach back position. It feels powerful but it sounds like I'm really missing the snap/power what have you.
It sounds like getting the disc to the right pec and not opening the shoulders too soon is very important. I practiced this today over lunch and felt very awkward and left me with a lot of questions.
If the disc needs to passively be positioned in front of the right pec why not just start with the disc there instead of reaching back? From the full reach back position when exactly is the disc moved to the chest area? And is that move performed by curling the arm in or by the shoulder opening up and pulling the disc to the chest? I have more questions but I'll start with those. TIA

The "Beto Drill" for Dan Beto, or right pec drill, is exactly that. Starting from the elbow forward position. I hated it and thought the drill had been surpassed by so many other drills developed later. But now that I have better shoulder, elbow, and hit point position I get it finally. It sucks though that I can do it after the fact but it never taught me the proper thing when I didn't understand.

To me what helps to try to feel and concentrate on, is busting through the hit point with leverage. Look at HUB's picture set in the original post. In the second last frame, so bottom middle, imagine there's a wall against the disc, perpendicular to the throwing line. Try to feel like you are hammering through this wall with the nose of the disc, with body weight and leverage. Don't just try to get the disc going real fast into the wall; try to feel your body weight push against and through this wall. Then get from the top right frame, the right pec position, to hammering through the wall with your body weight behind the disc. If you can get from the right pec to the hit point with your body leveraging it, then adding more of a load back/turn back/"reach back" will not be an issue.

 

[RFrance]

The "Beto Drill" for Dan Beto, or right pec drill, is exactly that. Starting from the elbow forward position. I hated it and thought the drill had been surpassed by so many other drills developed later. But now that I have better shoulder, elbow, and hit point position I get it finally. It sucks though that I can do it after the fact but it never taught me the proper thing when I didn't understand.

This is just what I've been working on for the last two weeks so it is great to see the necro bump. I went back to the DGR files and found Dan explaining it since I couldn't figure it out either. Now it makes sense.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9959&sid=836b7e5accdcae9dc597c7099117fa13http://

Add of course the companion that ties into this is Snap 2009 with Bradley Walker.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13291&sid=5f74574156c3b3bbab7823061cf5b6d0

Be prepared for frustration and spraying discs. But I'm sure it's going to pay off for me. I've even had of couple of my throws with the "pfffft" sound so I think I'm finally on the right track.

 

[slowplastic]

What helped me, is in my post above when I talk about breaking through an imaginary wall with the head of a disc or a hammer...try to feel your rear foot's toes push the disc through this wall. Just get into this position against the "wall", or even against a real wall with the back of your hand, and try to push off the rear foot's toes in a closed stance so it powers your hand directly. This is the leverage you want through the hit point. When you're in a full throw the toes will be off the ground at this point, but the leverage will feel the exact same. Don't think about it, just feel it.

 

[RFrance]

I'm still working on getting the feeling for the 90 degree chest upper arm angle going from the top right frame to the bottom left. I know it is supposed to be a pause/lag/slow down but it is tough to get the feeling.

 

[slowplastic]

I'm still working on getting the feeling for the 90 degree chest upper arm angle going from the top right frame to the bottom left. I know it is supposed to be a pause/lag/slow down but it is tough to get the feeling.

When I concentrated on busting through that hit point wall it all just worked for me. I had to stop thinking about getting to the reachback and trying to keep the elbow wide, and instead just thinking about getting to the hit point with leverage/weight. Suddenly it started looking much more correct.

 

[RFrance]

Thanks SP. Just got back from the field. That is just the visual I needed. The biggest immediate improvement was accuracy and the mids and putters were flying farther. I've got a lot more work ahead but this helps on getting the correct 90 degree angle.

 

[Majicmarkr]

Is a good mental cue comparing the pull on the disc like pull starting a lawm mower? When I pull the mower rope I don't lead with the head and throw my right shoulder all the way around. And I pull the rope to my right pec.

Where should I be looking, head facing during the pull and release?

 

[RFrance]

Is a good mental cue comparing the pull on the disc like pull starting a lawm mower? When I pull the mower rope I don't lead with the head and throw my right shoulder all the way around. And I pull the rope to my right pec.

Where should I be looking, head facing during the pull and release?

The analogy of starting the lawn mower leads to strong arming since you focus on pulling using your shoulder, triceps and lats. I've been there and done that. What you want to do is to use the timing of your shoulder rotation to launch a disc sitting on the end of a dingle arm.

To understand the difference watch Sidewinders the Reciprocating Dingle Arm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8 and the One Leg Drill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90

To answer the question of where should you be looking, go back to HUB's diagram in Post #1 of this thread. On top of the head is an arrow aimed at the disc on each sequence of the throw. Keep your eyes on the disc. Advanced players may disagree a little but this is a good way to start.

 

[slowplastic]

^Agree with you. The lawn mower thing only hurt me since it led to strong arming and trying to rip on the disc from the start. Maybe I can't start a lawnmower right, I just pull that sucker as hard as possible. Not how I should throw a disc.

Let the head turn with the torso. It should turn and kind of follow the disc. Just keep it balanced and supported, don't try to look back or forward quickly. Let it stay balanced and turn back in tempo and stay balanced on the spine during the shot. You won't be looking at the target while throwing, but you'll see the disc a little after it has left your hand. I feel like I pick it up in my vision after about 30-50' from release, but I'm sure everyone is slightly different. My point is I'm not trying to watch the disc or my intended line.